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Post by Ty Kissner on Apr 19, 2007 15:28:53 GMT -5
wow after just observing both their boxing records, tyson and hloyfield that is, i can only say one thing both guys have lost to some questionable fighters in the latter stages of their careers, possibly becausee they both hung on to the dream way too long... but getting back to the original point ps2 legends of boxing proved Tyson would score a 4th round knockout of ALI sorry but fate has been determined...By the almighty PS2.
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Post by TK on Apr 19, 2007 16:44:42 GMT -5
Remember Tyson career went down after jail & death of his mentor & Buster was a joke but got lucky & Holyfield if we kept useing his head bumps on me & the ref didn't say anything, I might of bit him too. (Holyfield had Tyson # anyway) Carlos, thank you... ......Holyfield was a lil' dirty...but it was a good strategy to piss off Tyson with the headbuts...i don't know if i'd call that boxing..however it worked and Holy is missing some ear..... Ty, I agree with ps2 TK
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Post by Carlos Beltran on Apr 20, 2007 5:58:10 GMT -5
AND THE WINNER IS IRON MIKE TYSON!!!!!!
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Post by Henry Vanburen on Apr 20, 2007 8:45:33 GMT -5
Ali would try the rope a dope and Tyson would punch him in the gut double him over and K.O. him with a powerful upper cut.No disrepect to Ali but it would all happen in the first round.
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Post by TK on Apr 20, 2007 11:23:02 GMT -5
Henry, maybe 3rd round... TK
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:49:17 GMT -5
Ok 21-9 wasnt good enough for you. From boxing Historian expert Cox Tyson is 10th and another thing that is funny is the guys ahead of Tyson I said in an earlier thread would beat him
THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME
Joe Louis Muhammad Ali Jack Johnson George Foreman Larry Holmes Jack Dempsey Sonny Liston Jim Jeffries Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson Rocky Marciano Joe Frazier Riddick Bowe Evander Holyfield Sam Langford Gene Tunney James J. Corbett Ezzard Charles Jersey Joe Walcott Max Schmeling
WHY THEY ARE RATED WHERE THEY ARE RATED
In an attempt to be unbiased I have rated them categorically as much as possible. This gives a certain consistency to my list.
The Superior Talents: Joe Louis is the best technician amongst all heavyweight punchers, the most complete fighter amongst all the heavyweight champions, the best in a combination of boxing skill and punching power. His punching accuracy is the best ever seen by a heavyweight on film. He has speed, power, and explosiveness, some of the best combination punching ever in any weight class of any time. Louis was the complete package. He holds the record for longest consecutive title reign at nearly 12 years and the most title defenses with 25, 21 of those are knockouts, 17 are ten counts, and 5 in the first round.
Muhammad Ali beat the highest class of competition in heavyweight history. He had incredible physical gifts, which were his phenomenal speed, a great chin and razor sharp reflexes. Fundamentally he was flawed having never learned the rudiments of boxing. Based on his athletic ability and quality of opposition I have no problem with Ali being # 1, although I prefer Louis for his superior technical skills and punching power.
Jack Johnson was the near equal of Ali as an athletic talent, the best defensive fighter amongst all heavyweight champions, particularly at glove blocking. He had speed, anticipation and athleticism on the level of Ali. He was dominant and rarely lost rounds in his prime. Nat Fleischer, founder of Ring Magazine, saw every heavyweight champion from Corbett to Ali. He wrote, (Black Dynamite Vol. 4 p. 6), “Jack Johnson boxed on his toes, could block from most any angle, was lightning fast on his feet, could feint an opponent into knots…he possessed everything a champion could hope for punch, speed, brains, cleverness, boxing ability and sharp-shooting." He also said, (50 Years at Ringside p. 84), that Johnson’s “mastery of ring science, his ability to block, counter, and feint, are still unexcelled.” He didn’t face the competition of Ali, but physically he was a marvel of the ring. Highly under-rated by many today.
Jim Jeffries: Jeffries is a bridge between the superior athletic talents and the super-heavyweights. He combined good size with excellent athletic ability. He possessed world-class sprinting speed and a 6-foot high jump. Although he was nearly big enough to be classified as a super-heavyweight he lacked the one shot punching power of most of the other big men. One look at his record shows that he was not a hitter in the class of Liston or Foreman. Stylistically he was a bit crude, but given enough rounds Jeffries might be the greatest heavyweight in history. If he survives the early rounds against any opponent he is a threat to win in the late rounds of any fight. He would be favored over most of the great heavyweights in a fight to the finish. He had an iron chin and was never knocked off his feet in his prime and had endurance to maintain a knockout punch past the 20th round. His best punch was his left hook to the head and body. In boxing matches 20 plus more rounds or to last man standing (fight to the finish) he would be favored against most of the top 20, but in a 15 round fight it is difficult to pick him against some of the men rated above him.
The BEST of the Super-Heavyweights:
George Foreman was a destroyer of the ring. The Foreman that annihilated an undefeated Frazier, crushed Norton, and cut the ring on Ali in Zaire was the most awesome heavyweight slugger in history. Ali did not defeat George by outboxing him. He beat him with his toughness. Ali in his autobiography said George had him out in his feet in Zaire and didn’t know it. If Ali took a punch an iota less than he did he doesn’t survive Foreman. I don’t think anyone else survives the ropes against the Foreman of 73-74. After losing to Ali he changed trainers and began to fight at a measured pace. This was a mistake for him. When he lost to Young he didn’t go after him and didn’t throw a meaningful punch until the 6th round. The Zaire Foreman crushes him inside a few rounds. It is a fallacy to say any clever boxer could beat him. The prime Foreman was a destroyer nonpareil. Very few men would beat the Foreman of 1974. Foreman was the greatest of the super-heavyweights, a freak of nature, he would crush Lennox Lewis inside 2 rounds in my opinion and the smaller swarming heavyweights would meet the same fate as Frazier. His power was such that he regained the heavyweight title at the elderly age of 45.
Larry Holmes: A master boxer, an outstanding ring general with good mobility for a big man and possessed a great left jab. He used his height and reach well and although not a huge knockout puncher, he possessed a strong right cross and uppercut. He also had a good chin and loads of heart. Larry was one of the best technicians in heavyweight history and he was solid defensively and had excellent footwork. His 20 title defenses are second only to Joe Louis.
Sonny Liston: Although only 6’1” Liston had the dimensions of a “super-heavyweight.” His 84” reach is tied for third longest in boxing history with Lennox Lewis. His fists are the largest of any heavyweight champion, 15” the size of ham hocks. Liston had a powerful shotgun jab to go along with his long reach, and he also possessed debilitating punching power with his powerful left hook and devastating uppercuts. Sonny had a strong chin, failing to last the distance only in the controversial Ali fights and towards the end of his career against Leotis Martin. His overall record of 50-4, 39 knockouts is quite good. He was a solid technician in the ring and one of the few heavyweight greats who fought well inside and outside. That cannot be said of too many fighters. Liston was highly avoided and should have been champ by 1960, if not for Ali he likely would have reigned as champion throughout the 1960's as there was no one to beat him until a peak Frazier.
Lennox Lewis: Was a good all around heavyweight champion who at 6’5” 240 pounds and an 84” reach knew how to use his size to advantage. He could box well outside with his long left jab and had a 1st tier right cross that was straight and extremely powerful. He had the size and punching power to knock out virtually anyone. Lennox could be more aggressive at times and was inconsistent in this manner. His chin was not at the highest level as he was twice knocked out as champion. Despite this flaw Lewis defeated every opponent he faced at least once.
The Great Swarmers
Jack Dempsey: The highest rated of the swarming heavyweights. The Manassa Mauler was not only one of the most exciting heavyweight champions in history he was also one of the ring's greatest all time pound for pound fighters. Dempsey has one of the best knockout records in history with a winning streak of 32-0 with 28 knockouts. His 25 first round knockouts are a record in the heavyweight division. Dempsey was a bob and weave swarmer who attacked violently from the opening bell. He could box inside, he could punch, and he could take a punch. He had excellent foot speed and could also maneuver around fairly well for his style. At 6’1” 190 pounds he might be considered smallish by today’s standards but he had the power and ability to knock out much larger opponents as his victories over Willard and Firpo aptly demonstrated.
Mike Tyson: The biggest, fastest, strongest and most powerful of the swarming type heavyweights. His speed and explosive power rate among the best ever. In his prime he also had fine defensive skills. Hank Kaplan wrote, that his “defense is the best seen in the heavyweight division in many years.” In his fights with Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker each man only landed one significant punch in their entire fights. Tyson’s perpetual motion bob and weave was designed to make an opponent miss while always being in position to punch. He was very elusive with his upper body. He was able to anticipate an opponent’s attack, slip their punches and counter perfectly. Tyson was one of those fighters who after winning the title could not stay on the top of his game mentally. While lacking the durability and mental toughness of many of the other great heavyweights his physical talent and punching power is enough to defeat many of them. But because he lost his legacy fights (Douglas, Holyfield 1 and 2, Lewis) he cannot rate higher in a historical sense. One has to wonder if he would freeze up and fold against other all time greats who were not afraid of him.
Rocky Marciano: Although small at 5’ 10 ¼ and 185 pounds Marciano was a tremendous puncher. He was also a non-stop slugger who wore down his opposition through attrition. A classic swarming style heavyweight who never stopped coming and never stopped punching until his opponents wilted. He was greatly conditioned and often set a relentless pace. Marciano’s tough chin and powerful right hand keep him a threat against most opponents. The only heavyweight champion to retire unbeaten and not come back. 49-0 is his legacy. Why he isn't higher: He never faced a 1st tier heavyweight puncher who weighed over 200 pounds. The two best punchers he faced in his career, Walcott and Moore- aged 38 and 42 at the time-had Rocky on the canvas. Joe Louis is not included since when he met Rocky, the Brown Bomber had long since lost his once devastating punch.
Joe Frazier: Frazier was a pressuring, swarming heavyweight who gave 3 minutes of work every round. “Smokin’ Joe” was one of the most aggressive pressure fighters of all time. His left hook was among the best in heavyweight history. Frazier was a willing fighter who knew how to get inside and go to work. He cut the ring as well as any fighter in history. His body punching was unrelenting. He had a heart that would not quit, although the quality of his chin has been questioned against the biggest punchers. His only losses are to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman.
Not Quite Top 10
Riddick Bowe: Bowe was a super-heavyweight at 6’5” 230 plus pounds and with a reach of 81inches. He was also the best infighter among the giants. He had an excellent jab, a strong uppercut, and worked the body very well. But he didn’t dedicate himself the way he should have and lacked proper conditioning except for his peak performance in the first Holyfield fight. The Bowe of that night (Holyfield 1) would be a threat to any heavyweight who ever lived. Beat Holyfield in 2 of 3 contests. Some critics have questioned his chin, but it was solid. His main weakness was lack of a proper work ethic and laziness, which keeps him from rating with the elite fighters.
Evander Holyfield: A good all around performer, “The Real Deal” could punch well, box, move, counter, had loads of heart and durability and was a fine ring general. Not among the greatest punchers but he could finish a man when he was hurt. Holyfield mixed great performances with lackluster ones and his inconsistence performances keep him from ranking higher. Holyfield was a good boxer but tended to abandon defense and slug it out and this would hurt him against many of the best punchers. Holyfield also had a tendency to tire in some important fights including Holmes, Foreman, Bowe 1 and 3, and Michael Moorer fights. The fact that aged (40 plus) versions of Holmes and Foreman could do well with him leaves one to believe that the prime versions would have beaten him.
Sam Langford: Was never a champion nor was he truly a heavyweight at his peak, yet he knocked out nearly every top heavyweight of his era at least once. Perhaps Mike Silver described him best, “His short hook on the inside and his right cross and uppercut were particularly deadly. His punishing jab was also one of the best. He was a strategist who knew how to maneuver, with the ability to explode out of an offensive or defensive position. He could instantly stop when retreating, revert to the offensive, and in the blink of an eye render an opponent unconscious with trip-hammer blows thrown in four and five punch combinations. Langford's every move embodied the technique of a studied master boxer. During his prime he was rarely outfought, out-thought, or out-punched." Langford has more knockouts than Mike Tyson and George Foreman combined. The only reason he doesn’t rank higher is because he was at his peak as a light-heavyweight.
The Small But Clever Boxers
Gene Tunney: The “Fighting Marine” was an intelligent boxer with a nice jab, clever footwork, and solid punching. He also possessed a strong chin and was down only once in his career. Tunney was a master boxer who could find the weakness in any opponent's style and exploit it. Was at his peak at light-heavyweight, where I rate him # 2 amongst all 175 pounders, but he was also a very fine heavyweight boxer deserving a ranking among the 20 best ever.
James J. Corbett: Slick and quick Corbett was a master boxer who at an old age impressed Gene Tunney while sparring. Corbett had great stamina, mobility, and a fine jab. He weighed near or at 190 pounds. He was intelligent and innovative, Corbett is often credited as being the inventor of the left hook. Corbett was also an outstanding amateur winning a Golden Gloves Championship and Seven Silver Championship Cups in Amateur Boxing on the Pacific Coast. He frustrated his opposition with clever out boxing and counter-punching.
Ezzard Charles: The “Cincinnati Cobra” was an excellent boxer who looks very good on film. He had speed of and hand and foot, mobility, sharp accurate punching, flashy combinations, countering ability, and endurance. He was an expert technician. Ezzard possessed a knockout punch until the death of opponent Sam Baroudi, after that he was more content to outbox opponents than really hurt them. He was at his peak as a light-heavyweight defeating Archie Moore 3 of 3. He made 9 successful defenses of the heavyweight title. His chin is somewhat suspect as he was knocked out several times.
Jersey Joe Walcott: Crafty, cunning and possessor of a strong punch Walcott was a master at feinting and counter-punching who also possessed clever footwork. His slick moves, jukes, and perfectly timed counters would cause problems for many a great fighter. The oldest man in heavyweight history to win the title until George Foreman.
Max Schmeling: A very smart counter-puncher with a strong right hand. He knew how to feint and set his man up. He was a good all around performer in the ring. Nat Fleischer regarded Schmeling as the most under-rated of all the heavyweight champions that he saw in his lifetime. Hank Kaplan noted Schmeling had “the best straight right hand, down the pipe and between the gloves” that he had ever seen on film.
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:52:01 GMT -5
Eastside Boxing out of NY top 10
1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.
2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.
3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.
4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.
5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.
6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.
7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.
8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.
9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.
10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson. Finally, earns points for becoming the only four time heavyweight champ (although only twice in linear terms).
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:54:54 GMT -5
Fox Sports has Ali one Tyson 5 which is to high
Top 10 Greatest Heavyweight Champions Dec 17, 2005 | 9:44PM | report this Remember when the heavyweight division was the center of attention? It's been a while since the division has earned that right, because the lower levels have had far better matches with more skill and intrigue. But there have been times over several years that the heavyweight division was looked at in awe. No more. Nonetheless, here is my top 10 and hopefully your imagination can take you back to what heavyweight boxing use to be:
10 - Jack Dempsey: Already, boxing purists are saying 'how do you have him that low?'. Simple, put him and his 190 pound frame into the ring against some of the bigger fighters that will be mentioned in a short while and you will see that Dempsey would not have been as successful. His skills and ability to put fear in the fighters he faced is noteworthy, and his dominance over a few year period puts him on this list.
9 - Rocky Marciano: Again, another guy people will think is not high enough, especially considering Rocky was undefeated. During his time as champion, he beat an old Joe Walcott and an even older Archie Moore. His toughest battles came against Ezzard Charles who was also past his prime at that point. Because he retired quickly, we never got to see him face Floyd Patterson or Sonny Liston. He would have taken Patterson, Liston I highly doubt.
8 - Lennox Lewis: His losses to Oliver McCall and Hassim Rahman overshadows what was a dominant career. Riddick Bowe ducked him, Evander Holyfield had a gifted draw, and unfortunately Lewis did not face Mike Tyson at his peak. If Lewis had faced Holyfield in the early to mid 1990's, I still think Lewis would have won.
7 - Sonny Liston: Had Patterson not avoided him Liston probably would have been champion earlier. Ofcourse, going to prison doesn't help either. This guy ripped through everyone in the heavyweight division until Patterson finally had to give him a chance. Liston was pre-George Foreman.
6 - Larry Holmes: He faced and beat every fighter worthy of a title chance in the late 70's-early 80's. He almost broke Marciano's 49-0 record and tied the consecutive knockout record by a heavyweight champion. While guys were trading paper championships, Holmes was solidifying himself as THE man in the division. His fight with Ken Norton to win the WBC title was epic.
5 - Mike Tyson: Usually when a guy enters age 30 he enters his prime. Tyson was just leaving prison. His run as Champ from 1986-89 was dominating. He absolutely tore guys apart. It was his downfall in the 90's and thereafter that did not put Tyson higher on the list. I still believe he could have taken Holmes while they were both in their prime, but not the next name on this list.
4 - George Foreman: This guy could absolutely punch. Im talking about his reign in the 1970's where he kicked the crap out of both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He wasn't going to be stopped, until Muhammad Ali strategically outsmarted him in the ring. Had Ali not won, Foreman's career would have been a lot different and we may have be talking about him as the best ever.
3 - Jack Johnson: He was a heavyweight champion in the 1910's, and he was black. Talk about a guy with a target on his back. Anyone that could have fought through that had to be tough as nails. He also beat a lot of guys to a pulp. Not many could have fought during the time he did and not go crazy.
2 - Joe Louis: 25 title defenses is not too bad. Completely dominated the heavyweight division for many years and could flat-out punch. He also had to endure some hardship as a black heavyweight champion, but not as much as Johnson.
1 - Muhammad Ali: Forget about the hype or the 3 titles he won or all the guys he beat. His style was so difficult and he was so smart that he could have fought in any era and won. His hand speed was quick, and his power was underrated. His run in the 1960's was his most dominant, but his second run as champion was the most compelling. He beat a lot of great fighters in his time that would be too exhausting to mention.
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:56:52 GMT -5
another ALI #!
1) Muhammad Ali- Was the quickest heavyweight of all time of hand and foot. Had the best chin in heavyweight championship history. Had an underrated punch as evidenced by his KOs of Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman, neither of which were previously or subsequently knocked out. Fought during what is arguably the best era of heavyweight boxing fighting the likes of: Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis, and George Foreman. Ali's longevity is magnificent. Historically, it is usually the power hitters who are able to hold on longer to their careers because it is said that a fighter's punch is the last thing to leave them while a boxer's skills, speed and reflexes, are the first to leave any fighter. Ali's forte was speed, mobility and reflexes, (although he had an underrated punch), yet he continued to succeed despite his eroding skills. That's very telling about the outstanding fighter he was.
2) Joe Louis- (Pictured knocking out Max Schemling in their historic rematch.) The longest reign of any heavyweight champion, (over 11 years), with the most title defenses, (25). I think most of his opposition would've taken a back seat to Ali's had they all been in the same eras. Jack Sharkey, Primo Carnera, Jimmy Braddock, and Tony Galento were nothing that great. Galento was a Golden Age punching bad/tough guy, and Braddock was a Golden Age Buster Douglas. The only greats Louis fought in his time were an ill-prepared Max Baer, Max Schemling and Jersey Joe Walcott. Even so, he possessed beautiful combinations and unparralleled punching power. A great fighter.
3) Larry Holmes- Probably the most underrated heavyweight of all time. Great record that included the 2nd longest reign, 2nd longest undefeated winning streak AND 2nd most title defenses. Outstanding jab and potent right hand. Opponents available during the time were talented but limited compared to Ali's. Norton, Shavers, Withersthingy, Cooney, Weaver, Bonecrusher Smith, Carl Williams, and I think he beat Michael Spinks in the rematch. I also think he was underrated during comeback. He beat some solid journeymen, such as Jesse Ferguson, and a god top fighter in Ray Mercer. I'm of the opinion that he beat McCall and Nielsen. As far as I'm concerned, he has 3 losses: Tyson (of course), the 1st Spinks fight, and Holyfield.
4) George Foreman- Great power. Blew away all-time greats, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. I think a combination of the physical aspects of the 70s Foreman combined with the mentality of the 90s Formean would've made for a practically unbeatable fighter, but what might've been doesn't count and I think Foreman accomplished enough in both careers to cement his place in history. The oldest man to win the heavyweight championship of the world and he did it via one punch KO, ala Rocky Marciano. Except, Foreman was the old guy beating the young guy and Rocky was a young guy beating an old guy, which is impressive.
5) Rocky Marciano- (pictured right against a past-his-prime Joe Louis, knocking him out in 8.) Undefeated in 49 fights, great KO power, and unbelievable stamina. Some argue that his opposoition was the best and some say it was garbage. My opinion is in the middle. Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott were past their prime, but still incredibly good fighters. Still, as history shown, it's practically impossible to achieve 49 wins without a defeat even with limited opposition. There's always that one guy who gets you, but not with Marciano. He beat all of the best fighters of his time, which is the highest accomplishment and honor that any fighter can claim.
6) Joe Frazier- (pictured below in his first slugfest with Jerry Quarry, a fight that was awarded Fight of the Year in 1969). An amazing warrior who truly loved fighting. This guy actually enjoyed it when you came to go to war, which would explain the shortness of his career. The most famous and probably the best left hook of all time and he beat very good opposition. Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, and Muhammad Ali are fighters on his resume. There isn't a fighter in the history of boxing who was tougher and more of a warrior and I doubt there ever will be.
7)Evander Holyfield- One of the great warriors of all time. It's still hard to analyze where Evander goes in this list because he's still active. I had him in my top 5, but now I got him at #7. Even so, he undoubtably belongs in everybody's top 10. Great combination puncher, good left hook, good chin, and a great heart. Positively scary when it came to rebounding from potentially disastrous moments in fights. Up to now, has beaten all of the top opposition of his time except Lennox Lewis. James Tillis, Pinklon Thomas, Buster Douglas, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Riddick Bowe, Bert Cooper, Alex Stewart, Mike Tyson, and Michael Moorer.
8) Jack Dempsey- The original Tyson. A truly ferocious fighter. Great stopping power, especially when he put together shots. KO of Jess Willard is perhaps one of the most brutal KOs I've ever seen. Dempsey also KO'd Georges Carpentier in 4 memorable rounds; Luis Firpo in 2 of the most ferocious rounds in boxing history; and Jack Sharkey, after Sharkey outboxed him for 6 rounds, in 7 rounds. He also beat Tommy Gibbons via 15 round decision. A great combination puncher.
9) Jack Johnson- One of the most intelligent fighters ever. Great defense. Wins over Sam Langford, Fireman Flynn, Stanley Ketchel and Tommy Burns are a testament to his ability. Extraordinarily brave man who was clearly ahead of his time.
10) Mike Tyson- In his prime, he beat all of the opposition available, except George Foreman, who he hasn't fought. Quite possibly the best finisher in heavyweight history. Knockout power with either hand. Great defense in his prime. First guy to unify the 3 belts (WBA, IBF, & WBC). In his comeback, he regained 2 of the 3 belts. He's still in a quest to regain the championship and has beaten some credible opponents in Franz Botha and Lou Savarese. He's still in the game and carrying fury in each hand, so he's not out of the picture yet.
11) Charles "Sonny" Liston- In pop culture, Liston is basically the guy who lays flat on his back while a prime, taunting Muhammad Ali stands over him, yelling for him to get up. An unfair way to remember the great Liston. Liston had one of the best jabs of all time, and possessed a powerful left hook. Before capturing the heavyweight title, he forced a match with then champion Floyd Patterson by cleaning out the division. After losing the title to Ali, Liston would try to force a third match with Ali by beginning a comeback. He won several easy fights. He fought and defeated a young Henry Clark primarily with jab. Liston looked slow and ponderous but his jab was still accurate. He went on to fight Leotis Martin and was beating him convincingly, even scoring a knockdown with his feared left hook in the 4th round. But Martin would rebound and score and brutal one punch knockout in the 10th. It was the only time Liston was knocked cold. However, Liston would fight once again, this time stopping Chuck Wepner on cuts. It would his last fight. Liston was found dead in a hotel room not long after. Liston was a tremendous champion, a good puncher and one that would've given any great heavyweight a war.
12) Ezzard Charles- (Picture: Charles, left, with arch-nemesis Jersey Joe Walcott) Very underrated although more and more, aficionados are starting to give him his due. Very good boxer who made his name beating Jersey Joe Walcott in both of their first two out of four encounters (Walcott won fights #3 and #4), beat Archie Moore (thrice), Joey Maxim (thrice) and Joe Louis, and for giving Rocky Marciano his two toughest fights. Charles won the title Joe Louis vacated when he beat Walcott in their fight #1. Throughout the course of reign, Charles beat Gus Lesnevich in 7; coming-backing Joe Louis by 15th round decision; Walcott in their fight #2 by 15th decision; and Joey Maxim by 15th round decision. After the Maxim fight, Charles met Walcott for a third time and would lose the title when Walcott nailed him with a perfect left hook. And as previously mentioned, he failed to beat Rocky Marciano in two hard fights. One of which Marciano himself would later claim to be the toughest fight of his career.
13) Jersey Joe Walcott- Great boxer who can hit. He was given a raw deal in his first fight with Joe Louis, a fight that Louis won on the cards, but that many believed should go to Walcott. In Louis-Walcott II, Walcott was again beating Louis convincingly when Louis unleased a lethal barrage of shots that knocked Walcott out in round 13. After losing to Ezzard Charles in their first two meetings, Walcott would go on to beat Charles for the heavyweight title with a devestating left hook in their 3rd meeting and therby making him the oldest man to win the title at age 37, (Foreman would break this record at age 45). Walcott defended the title against Charles in their fourth and final meeting and won by decision, but he would lose the title to Marciano in yet another fight in which Walcott was ahead when he was knocked out with one shot by Rocky Marciano. Walcott retired after losing by 1st round KO in the Marciano rematch. He died on February 1994 and never saw his record as "oldest man to win the heavyweight title" broken since Foreman would break his record in November of the same year.
14) John L. Sullivan- I'm always extremely apprehensive about rating fighters who have no known fight footage avalable on them, but the influence of "The Great John L." can not be denied. He was the reason boxing became a prominent and famous sport in the United States. He was also partially responsible for bringing the rules of boxing as we know it today into fruition. In doing this, Sullivan made himself the turning point in boxing, bridging the gap between bare-knuckle fighting and the gloved "Sweet Science." As a fighter, he had great longevity, winning his title by knocking out Paddy Ryan in 9 rounds back in February 1882 and losing it over 10 years later, on September 1892, to "Gentleman" Jim Corbett by 21st round KO. It would be his last fight. Sullivan announced after his defeat that it was obvious he was past his best days and time for him to hang them up. He died on February 2, 1918.
15) Floyd Patterson- Patterson always prided himself by saying, "I got knocked down more than any champion and I got up more than every champion." Patterson was a good fighter. He was perhaps the quickest fighter in boxing history until Muhammad Ali became "The Greatest." Patterson won the title vacated by Marciano by knocking out Archie Moore in 5 rounds. He was a protected fighter for some time and lost the title to Swedish champion Ingemar Johanson by KO. A rematch between Patterson and Johanson would be set and Patteson would become the first man to win the heavyweight title twice after knocking Johanson out. Patterson would fight Johanson once more and would win their rubber match by yet another impressive KO. Patterson lost the title to Sonny Liston by 1st round blowout and Patterson would lose the rematch in equally brutal fashion. Despite these brutal losses to Liston, you have to admire the way Patterson took the fights. Neither Patterson himself or his trainer, Cus D'Amato, believed he could beat Liston, but he took the fights on principle. Still, it was not the end of Patterson's career. Patterson would rebound and challenge some very tough contenders after losing the title. Patterson would beat Oscar Bonavena and George Chuvalo, two extremely tough contenders who were top fighters in their own right. Patterson would lose to a prime Muhammad Ali by 12th round KO. But Patterson came back again, this time losing controversial decisions to Jerry Quarry and WBA champ Jimmy Ellis, both who were top fighters. Patterson's last fight was a 7th round KO loss to Ali. Overall, Patterson had 8 losses. 2 to Liston, 2 to Ali and 1 to Johanson. The rest of the losses were questionable ones to: Joey Maxim early in Patterson's career; Ellis and Quarry. Patterson fought many elite fighters successfully. He is considered the fastest heavyweight ever, second only to Ali, and he was a good puncher.
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:58:12 GMT -5
ALI #1 Sports column
#10) Archie Moore-- He is the greatest boxer that no one has ever heard of. The old "mongoose" had an astonishing record of 181-24-9. He will go down as the only boxer to ever face both Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali. He will best be known for his crouching, defensive style that made him almost unhittable. Many boxers such as Ken Norton would use these defensive tactics as well. Archie Moore was also a great teacher of the sport and he helped Norton as well as many other boxers achieve greatness. His only flaw was that he was probably a little on the light side to be a good true heavyweight. He was just about untouchable in the light-heavyweight division. In fact, he had his light-heavyweight title stripped twice because of inactivity in that division. Archie Moore's longevity easily exceeds that of Julio Cesar Chavez, and he's a must for the list. #9) Evander Holyfield "The Real Deal"--Evander Holyfield is one of the few fighters who is worthy of being called a warrior. Even though he was a skilled boxer, he would never be afraid to go toe to toe with an opponent. His bravery in the ring was unimaginable and his punching power was scary. He was an amazing physical specimen as well. His physique had to intimidate his opponents, as he was the most chiseled boxer I have ever seen. He was the first fighter to not be intimidated by Mike Tyson, and beat him twice. His fight with Riddick Bowe is a must-see, and he is the only person I know whose status went up even though he lost. He ended up beating Riddick Bowe in a rematch and joined Muhammad Ali as the only boxers to regain the heavyweight title three times. He was one of my favorites, and I'll miss seeing Evander in the ring.
#8) Jack Johnson-- He was the first "modern" heavyweight champion. In Johnson's era, boxing began to move its venues from the alleys and backstreets, to more public areas. He was an excellent counter-puncher, and he often preferred not to knock his opponents out in order to continue his punishment. He did have power and could knock an adversary out if pushed. He held the heavyweight title for almost 7 years without a defeat. Of course, being a black heavyweight champion in America in the early 1900s was a challenge to say the least. He had to deal with shady judges and various "great white hopes" who came to challenge him at every turn. His love for white women and taunting white men only exacerbated his problems. He would make life much more difficult for African-American heavyweights who would come after him, as white America did not ever want another Jack Johnson. His ring legacy could not be denied and that is why he makes my list.
#7) "Iron" Mike Tyson-- If I were to have made the list 15 years ago, he probably would have been 4th or 5th. Mike Tyson was the most feared heavyweight of all time. His combination of speed and power are unparalleled in boxing history. He was shorter than the average heavyweight, but his jitterbug style allowed him to slip a taller opponents jab. If an opponent was unfortunate enough to get hit by his left hook, it would most likely mean an extended period on the canvas. His left hook was the best that I've ever seen (Frazier is a very close second) and he also had a very vicious uppercut. Tyson was his own worst enemy and his troubles with the law cut into the prime of his career. He was a man who never had stability in his life and he was taken advantage of by many people (most notably Don King and Robin Givens). He's still trying to recapture his glory today, but the fact that he was the youngest heavyweight champion ever and his legacy makes him an obvious choice.
#6) Jack Dempsey--If Dempsey had the success in modern times, that he did in the 20s, he would be in the top 3 on my list without a doubt. One thing about making lists like this is that it is very hard to compare a Dempsey to a Mike Tyson, even though their styles were very similar. However, there is no way that Dempsey doesn't make my list. Jack Dempsey is to boxing as what Bill Gates is to Microsoft. Dempsey was an American icon (even bigger than Babe Ruth), whose success in the ring was legendary. He was the first boxer to procure a 1 million dollar gate, and his fights regularly drew over 80,000 people. He was loved because he was undersized and would never back down from a challenge. His punching power was one of the strongest in boxing history (people allege that he poured cement into his gloves) and his knockouts left many opponents damaged for life. He continued to be a force in boxing even after he retired, and has to be on the list.
#5) "Smokin" Joe Frazier-- If this were a top 20 or 30 list you would see many boxers from Frazier's era here. I truly believe that golden age of the heavyweight division was from 1966 to 1978. There are no fewer than 8 boxers (Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton,Quarry, Mathis, Spinks and Shavers) from that time that would be either champion or top contenders today. Frazier distinguishes himself in this era because of his longevity and his heart. He could "bob & weave" but he would more likely take his opponents best punch and then deliver his trademark left-hook. No one took a punch better than Smokin Joe, and his left hook was almost unstoppable. His timing was impeccable and if you got "caught" with the hook it was sleepy time. His three fights with Muhammad Ali are legendary, and both fighters used each other to propel them into greatness. Ali/Frazier I is the best fight I've ever seen and Ali/Frazier III ("The Thrilla in Manila") is a very, very close second. Both bouts showcase Frazier's willingness to take a punch and his immense power and timing. Frazier is on everyone's top 10 list & he definitely makes mine.
#4) "Big" George Foreman-- Today, George Foreman is known more for his grill than his boxing skills. Although the grill is quite handy, I will always think of George Foreman as one of the most vicious sluggers in boxing history. He was a relatively unknown boxer until his championship bout with Joe Frazier in Jamaica on January 22nd 1973. This fight would change that forever. He knocked Frazier down 7 times, and the referee finally stopped the fight in the 2nd round. His punching power was awe-inspiring and that fight would be tough to watch for even the most masochistic of people. He then went on to pulverize Ken Norton only a few months thereafter. He then lost his title to Ali in "The Rumble in the Jungle" in 1974. This sent Foreman into a deep depression, and he left boxing for good in 1977. He would return in a shocking comeback that started at the age of 38 in 1987. No one gave him any chance to be competitive, but Foreman proved everyone wrong. He would challenge Evander Holyfield for the heavyweight title in 1991 and would regain the title in a stunning knockout of Michael Moorer in 1994. He became the oldest heavyweight champion at 45, and endeared himself to millions of fans. There has not been a heavyweight with Foreman's power in the history of the division. Also, his 76-5 record is extremely impressive, as there will not be another heavyweight with that many victories in our lifetime. He's a no-brainer for the list.
#3) Rocky Marciano-- Marciano is another fighter who makes everyone's list. A lot of people get into how great his punching power was and how he could take a punch, and all of that, but the reason he's here is because he was undefeated. There have been plenty of heavyweights who have obtained the heavyweight title being undefeated, but no one has ever retired that way. Marciano's record of 49-0 will probably never be touched. Boxing is a sport where even the greatest fighters make mistakes that cost them the bout. Marciano won all his fights by never making mistakes. He defeated Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore who are all members of boxing's Hall of Fame. His 43 knockouts in 49 victories are unbelievable considering that he did fight in an era where there were strong contenders. His legacy has begun to fade, however he still has plenty of fans across the country.
#2) Joe Louis "The Brown Bomber"--Whenever I think of Joe Louis, I think of power. He was one of those rare sluggers that had punching power in both arms. I've seen clips where he's staggered opponents with a jab!! He was a legend in his own time, and the most feared boxer in history. The most unbelievable fact in Louis' career was that he held his title for over 12 years. I don't think there will be anyone that will ever be so dominant for such a long time as Louis was. His fight against the German Max Schmelling in 1938 was probably the most important bout in American history. The world was at the brink of war and his defeat of the Schmeling sent Hitler a clear statement that America could stand up and beat the Germans. It also affirmed that African-Americans could do whatever Caucasians could do. His impact on the sport is still felt to this day and he was a pure class act.
#1) Muhammad Ali--Is there any doubt? Muhammad Ali was the greatest heavyweight to ever live. He dominated in the period where the heavyweight division was at its fiercest. He beat Frazier twice, Norton twice, Chuvalo twice, Patterson twice, Liston, Shavers, Mathis, and Jerry Quarry among others. He captured the title 3 times and had unbelievable flair. He was more like a middleweight in a heavyweight's body, and his quickness was jaw-dropping. In his early years he never took any punches and his jabs were lighting-quick. In his later years, he discovered that he could take a punch and he demoralized his opponents with his braggadocio. He waged psychological as well as physical warfare on his opponents. His taunting is legendary and his skill in the ring was even greater. His 3 battles with Frazier are consistently ranked as the best fights of all time. I think his best fight was against Foreman in Zaire, Africa. No one gave Ali any hope, and there were some people even in his corner that thought Foreman would potentially kill him. Muhammad won in a dramatic eighth round knockout using the now famous "rope-a-dope" strategy. In my opinion, Ali is the greatest athlete of all time, and he was an even better spokesperson for black people in the 60s. Muhammad Ali is the greatest!!!!
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 15:59:09 GMT -5
Bert SugARS
1)Muhammad Ali- It was amazing that a man of his physical size can move with such swiftness and agility. Was undefeated (30-0)when the title was wrongfully stripped from him in '67. Forced to stay out of boxing for three years, he went through ups and downs and 2 defeats to finally get another title shot at the age of 32 in 1974 and shocked the whole world by defeating the invincinble Big George Foreman. Two amazing title reigns and Ali was also the first man to win the Championship 3 times.
2)Joe Louis- The Brown Bomber was a deadly technician in the ring. During his title reign he faced anyone and anything that was put in front of him. Amazing number of title defenses(25!) and length of title reign.
3)George Foreman- In his early career Big George Foreman was a fighter that had the heavyweight division in fear, with an aura of invinciblity comparable to Tysons and Listons big George would have adversaries shaking in thier boots at the mention of his name. That is until he met Ali in '74. Big George was 42-0 when he lost to Ali. After the loss he went into a downward spiral that caused him to retire from boxing and becoming a preacher, didnt box for ten years. In 1988 Foreman came back with a drive to regain the heavyweight title again. And going through ups and downs he finally won back the title at the age of 45 in 1994 by KO against Michael Moorer. Amazingly regaining the title 20 years after losing it to Ali. Foreman is in the record books for the oldest man ever to win the championship at 45 years old, and also for having the 2nd highest knockout percentage in heavyweight history.
4. Rocky Marciano - The Rock was known for his amazing stamina in the ring like the energizer bunny you can keep beating him down but he just kept on coming. Incredible stamina, iron chin, unbeatable will to win, ability to knock you out with both hands, deadly body shots. What more can you ask for in a fighter. His 49-0 record still stands to this day.
5. Larry Holmes- The Easton Assassin was known for his lightning jab that was strong enough to knock you down. Holmes never got respect because unlike Ali he lacked an arch nemesis liek Ali had with Frazier, and he also ruled during a bleak period in heavyweight history. Spent 8 years as heavywieght Champ and went 48-0 before losing to Spinks almost tying Marciano's 49-0 record.
6. Joe Frazier- one word to describe him- relentless . Like Marciano you can throw everything at this guy and he'd still keep on coming. Owner of one of the deadliest left hooks in heavyweight history. The first man to beat Ali. His 3 dramatic fights with Ali made Smokin Joe Frazier a legend.
7. Lennox Lewis- During his title reign the British lion fought and defeated all the top heavyweights of his day including Holyfield and Tyson. Look at the list of all the fighters The British Lion has defeated and you'll see his place in history cannot be denied. Possessed one of the deadliest right hands in heavyweight history.
8.Evander Holyfield - Evander The Real Deal Holyfield is a man with incredible heart. Possesses one of the greatest chins of all time , this man didnt know the meaning of the word -quit. Proved the critics wrong time after time. Saying he wasnt big enough to be a Heavyweight he went on to win the title a record 4 times. His most dramtic win was when he defeated Iron Mike Tyson for the Title in 1996 when everyone wrote Holyfield off as a hasbeen.
9. Mike Tyson- Iron Mike Tyson's place in history is bittersweet to me because I feel had he stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, Mike Tyson had the POTENTIAL to become the greatest Heavyweight Champ of all time. Everyone knows Tysons story. Tyson had incredible speed, incredible KO power, great finisher, a violent blood lust to destroy his opponent. Many of Tysons fight would not go past the 2nd round. During Tyson's 3 year reign of terror opponents feared Tyson so much that they would forget to fight back. With his black shoes no socks, black trunks, fade haircut and gym towel draped on his shoulders he had an aura of invincibility that the ring had never seen before or since. In 1988 this man was frightening, his 90 second annihilation of Michael Spinks and 4 round destruction of Larry Holmes truly made him the "Baddest man on the planet".
10. Jack Dempsey- the Monnassa Mauler- was a devestating force to be reckoned with back in his day. Knocked out Jess willard in violent fashion knocking Willards teeth out literally to win the Heavyweight Title,,,,and Dempsey was outweighed by Willard by more than 50 lbs!!!. Dempsey style was the prototype to Tyson, Tyson even borrowed Dempseys style of wearing black shoes, black shorts, fade haircut from Dempsey. Going for the knock out Dempsey could knock you out with either hand. Pure assassin.
***special note - Jack Johnson is my #11. The reason I dont have him ranked higher is because he ruled in an old time era when heavyweights would fight middleweights and even welterweights. In fact Johnson himself fought many fights with many weight mismatches. Had Johnson ruled in a "Modernised Era" he would have placed higher on my list. With that being said I believe
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Post by guy on Apr 20, 2007 16:02:13 GMT -5
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Post by TK on Apr 20, 2007 20:13:49 GMT -5
Guy,
I'll beleive TY's Ps2....before all that crap.......i never said TYson was the best....just better than Ali prime vs prime.....those old boxers wouldget killed against the new....
my top 5
1. Larry Holmes (he killed the King) 2. Mike TYson 3. Evander Holyfield 4. Joe louis 5. Ali 6. Rocky Balboa (Rocky 3 , Rocky 4) 7. Raging bull ( DeNiro)
TK
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Post by Mark Evans on Apr 20, 2007 22:21:59 GMT -5
Eli, that is great stuff you posted. However I do believe boxing is making a come back. Boxing is one of the few sports you can compare past with present. I do believe todays heavyweights are better than most people want to give them creidt for. Guy, my top ten is similar to most of the experts. I do believe most of them don't give Holmes the respect he deserves. In my book he is number 2. TK, I understand the part about you being young when Tyson was at his best. Kind of gives them that larger than life presence.
Maywheather-De La Hoya in 2 weeks!!! That is going to be a great fight!!!
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Post by TK on Apr 21, 2007 9:36:46 GMT -5
Thanks Mark
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