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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 17, 2007 14:35:32 GMT -5
I will first say that I do not fully understand the intricate details of what Capitalism, Communism, or Socialism are. Bob, socialism is a form of economy, like capitalism. Communism is a form of government, like a democratic republic. I think this link explains it best: lilt.ilstu.edu/rrpope/rrpopepwd/articles/communism.html
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 8:37:02 GMT -5
Or:
Capitalism lead to the greatest country in the history of the earth.
Socialism, and it's red headed cousin Communism always fail. If failure is measured relative to Capitalism in the areas of * Health care * Economic growth * Personal wealth * Freedom
If you think $3.00 a gallon gas, and a 20% federal tax rate are excessive. You don't want anything to do with Socialism.
If you think the Government interferes too much with your choices of how to run your bar, you want no part of Socialism.
If on the other hand, you feel somebody else in Washington DC knows what is best for your money and how to raise your family, and what kind of car or house you can own, if you are even allowed to own a car or a house, then Socialism is right up your alley.
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 8:50:56 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. The problem is you went from a discussion of government programs to private "free enterprise" when you jumped on Bank of America in that last paragraph. The downside of capitalism and free enterprise is that greed becomes a virtue, and BofA is simply doing what it thinks will make it the most money. Can you blame them? This country encourages such behavior. And guess what, no matter how much we gripe about it here or CNN and Fox News calls them out for maybe a week, they're still going to get away with it and turn a profit from it, and it will become an accepted practice, just like the price gouging that oil companies are doing. We moan and groan all day long but no real action is ever taken. Such is life in america, as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. No, no, no...Bank of America is not only doing what affects their bottom line, whether they are capitalists or not. What they are doing is putting the legitamate customers (LEGAL citizens, ones who pays back what they were loaned) in jeopardy of losing BIG TIME in the end...not to mention getting it in the "end". When they offer FREE credit cards with a hope for a "good faith" payback, WHOSE MONEY ARE THEY OFFERING? That is communism. Or socialism if you will.
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 8:58:28 GMT -5
Capitalism does not, repeat DOES NOT, promote greed.
Capitalism made America the wealthiest nation ever, because of freedom. Capitalism also made Americans the most generous people ever.
No country on earth has citizens who donate more of their own wealth to charity in other countries than America. These private donations are above and beyond the donations made by the American government.
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 9:32:03 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. The problem is you went from a discussion of government programs to private "free enterprise" when you jumped on Bank of America in that last paragraph. The downside of capitalism and free enterprise is that greed becomes a virtue, and BofA is simply doing what it thinks will make it the most money. Can you blame them? This country encourages such behavior. And guess what, no matter how much we gripe about it here or CNN and Fox News calls them out for maybe a week, they're still going to get away with it and turn a profit from it, and it will become an accepted practice, just like the price gouging that oil companies are doing. We moan and groan all day long but no real action is ever taken. Such is life in america, as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. No, no, no...Bank of America is not only doing what affects their bottom line, whether they are capitalists or not. What they are doing is putting the legitamate customers (LEGAL citizens, ones who pays back what they were loaned) in jeopardy of losing BIG TIME in the end...not to mention getting it in the "end". When they offer FREE credit cards with a hope for a "good faith" payback, WHOSE MONEY ARE THEY OFFERING? That is communism. Or socialism if you will. So what is BofA's motivation for this new program? Why are they doing it?
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 9:54:46 GMT -5
OK, I see your point; I have from the beginning. Of course Bank of America is screwing a lot of people so they can turn a profit; however, at what cost? How many people have they lost to that venture? Sorta like Hugo Chavez and Citgo. Yes, their motivation is to turn a profit. Does that make them capitalist? If so, isn't every business a capitalist business? If so, I propose we stop supporting them and make it the best way we can at a non-profitable business. Of course I don't think anyone would care if your car needed repairing, or your house was becoming delapadated. They would ask, "You didn't have anything put back for such an occassion?" It would surely be a "All for yourself" society. I truly do not see the benefits of going to a socialist economy. I am not saying you are lazy, Erick, but I am saying if I wanted something for nothing I would definitely want a socialist economy where everything was taken care of. Like I said earlier, in CERTAIN minute areas a socialist theory could work, IF worked properly. But to take the whole economy that way...NO THANK YOU!
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 10:05:26 GMT -5
^and I agree with that. Capitalism is the best system, don't get me wrong, but I think it can be tweaked with a socialistic policy here or there to better serve the people. And that's pretty much what we have here in America. Welfare, Section 8, etc, are socialistic programs, and (theoretically) the remaining support for the lower class is provided by charity rather than mandated government programs. However, the issue of healthcare has been overlooked for a long time and I think it's healthy for this country to discuss ways it can be addressed.
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 10:08:05 GMT -5
Capitalism does not, repeat DOES NOT, promote greed. Capitalism made America the wealthiest nation ever, because of freedom. Capitalism also made Americans the most generous people ever. No country on earth has citizens who donate more of their own wealth to charity in other countries than America. These private donations are above and beyond the donations made by the American government. Exactly! Ask Bill Gates how much they give every year to the 'Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation'. Now, ask the rich celebrities (movies, sports, talk shows, and music) how much they have given to this country they hold so dear. They adopt children from other countries (Madonna ... Brad Pitt) when there are children here needing that. Are they capitalists or are they just entertainers who just so happen made a crap load of money and they should be able to keep what they make and spend how they see fit? Oh but they preach how we should give while they live it up in their multi-country mansions.
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 10:09:22 GMT -5
However, the issue of healthcare has been overlooked for a long time and I think it's healthy for this country to discuss ways it can be addressed. Agreed.
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 10:24:14 GMT -5
Socialized health care would be a disaster. Would you really like a hospital run like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles?
Example 1. Political parties in England would like to deny health benefits to patients of certain diseases like smoking, obesity etc.
Example 2. When compared to Socialist countries, the area America constantly comes up short is the area of primary education. It is widely accepted and easily proved that America's education system is far worse than those of Europe. The irony is that America has a Socialized education system, (government run, no competition). While Europe has a education system more like Capitalism, i.e. an education system based on competition and choice. Why would we want to model our Health Care system (one of the best) after our education system (one of the worst) ?
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 10:37:44 GMT -5
Socialized health care would be a disaster. Would you really like a hospital run like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles? Example 1. Political parties in England would like to deny health benefits to patients of certain diseases like smoking, obesity etc. Example 2. When compared to Socialist countries, the area America constantly comes up short is the area of primary education. It is widely accepted and easily proved that America's education system is far worse than those of Europe. The irony is that America has a Socialized education system, (government run, no competition). While Europe has a education system more like Capitalism, i.e. an education system based on competition and choice. Why would we want to model our Health Care system (one of the best) after our education system (one of the worst) ? That is directed to Erick, but I would like to add an example of what you said. The town my wife is from had two schools (socially accepted) black school and white school. They were happy with what they had even though the black school needed some work done to it. They (parish) desegregated them and you had "flight" to other schools, private schools. The tax dollars left the town and now both schools are completely run down!!! They did this because they were TOLD what was going to happen and this is the result. Race may have had a part in it, but the principal matter I explained was the deciding factor all together. All over the government's (whether state, local, or federal) interference. The school board's interference was more detrimental. They are the government of the schools. Start taking the public's monies and do what they did and you will have a much larger problem on a national, if not global scale.
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 10:54:35 GMT -5
Socialized health care would be a disaster. Would you really like a hospital run like the Bureau of Motor Vehicles? Example 1. Political parties in England would like to deny health benefits to patients of certain diseases like smoking, obesity etc. Example 2. When compared to Socialist countries, the area America constantly comes up short is the area of primary education. It is widely accepted and easily proved that America's education system is far worse than those of Europe. The irony is that America has a Socialized education system, (government run, no competition). While Europe has a education system more like Capitalism, i.e. an education system based on competition and choice. Why would we want to model our Health Care system (one of the best) after our education system (one of the worst) ? For the most part, I can't argue that point, other than to say that everyone should be entitled to healthcare, just as everyone should be entitled to education. If healthcare were available to all, but privatized, I'd have no problem with it.
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 11:01:00 GMT -5
Health care is available and provided to all people in America.
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 11:44:06 GMT -5
Even the 45+ million americans who don't have health insurance?
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 12:27:12 GMT -5
Don't confuse health care with health insurance.
No one entering an emergency room is denied care, even if they have no insurance, even if they are not even an American.
Anyone willing to pay for health services can enter a hospital or health clinic of their choosing. Like the thousands of Canadians that come to America each year for health care because they are dissatisfied with their own Socialized Health Care System. I wonder how many Americans travel to Canada to receive operations?
Don't fret too much about the uninsured, and I suspect the government figure of 45 million is overstated. Health insurance is a very poor investment and millions opt out. I'd opt out of my health insurance if my employer would offer me 50% of what they currently spend on my insurance.
Although, I find it ironic that you even bring up health insurance, because that is the most 'Socialized' aspect of our health care system. The government mandates health insurance for millions of government workers, and requires employers provide insurance for millions more.
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