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Post by Bob Brown on Jun 18, 2007 13:12:13 GMT -5
First I will say that I think Capitalism is the best system but it has its problems Capitalism does not, repeat DOES NOT, promote greed. TRUE, But it is a petri dish for it. Health care is available and provided to all people in America. It is available but NOT provided. There is a big difference. Don't confuse health care with health insurance. No one entering an emergency room is denied care, even if they have no insurance, even if they are not even an American. Anyone willing to pay for health services can enter a hospital or health clinic of their choosing. Like the thousands of Canadians that come to America each year for health care because they are dissatisfied with their own Socialized Health Care System. I wonder how many Americans travel to Canada to receive operations? Don't fret too much about the uninsured, and I suspect the government figure of 45 million is overstated. Health insurance is a very poor investment and millions opt out. I'd opt out of my health insurance if my employer would offer me 50% of what they currently spend on my insurance. Now Todd dont think for one second that an un-insured person gets even remotely the same care at an emergency room as an insured person. And what about the people not able to pay because cost is too high and they would rather pay utility bills or for food. Noone may be crossing the boarder to Canada for healthcare BUT there are 1000,s crossing into Mexico for service at a tenth the cost with Doctors trained here in the US. If you opted out of your insurance for 50%. What would happen if you had a major injury. You would be claiming Medical bankruptcy. Now after all this......Where are we going to dinner.
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 13:56:11 GMT -5
You are correct. Capitalism is the best, it's most glaring short comings are the Socialist aspects our government has added in order to buy votes.
You are wrong, success is not greed. The most corrupt societies are not Capitalist societies
You are correct, it is offered, not provided, to all people.
You are correct, those who pay more get more. Giving everybody the same health care is what Socialism does. The problem is it doesn't provide every one with the best care, it provides equally poor care to everyone.
You are confused. Welfare, Medicare, Social Security are all Socialist entitlement programs to alleviate that problem. If they haven't fixed it in the last 40 or more years, why do you suppose one more entitlement program will?
You make a good point. Crossing into Mexico for cheaper health care ( I'll take your word that it happens, uuughhhh ) Is an excellent and Capitalistic idea. Competition always decreases cost and increases quality. More Americans should shop around for their health care.
You are wrong. I can purchase a Major Medical policy for 30% of what my employer pays for my benefits ( I haven't been to a doctor for years, thus am not even using the benefits that actually lower my wages). I can invest the other 20% in this growing economy and in short order purchase that spec house you have for sale.
That is up to you I'm coming to the NAL event in September, they probably have an acceptable restaurant in Vegas don't they?
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 15:59:24 GMT -5
Which leads back to what I had suggested. Is there a way to privatize healthcare while guaranteeing all citizens are covered? It can be done, if only we could find room for it in the budget...the budget that always seems to find a spare $400 billion laying around for wars...
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Post by Toddzilla on Jun 18, 2007 16:27:00 GMT -5
Who is not covered?
What does it have to do with the war? Unless you are proposing America implement SaddamCare?
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Post by gambit on Jun 18, 2007 16:43:54 GMT -5
See! This is my problem. Not so much with our people going over the border to get cheaper PRICED services at the cost of cheaper quality, but the people who come here to become doctors, which their education is most likely paid for. Everything pertaining to their education, (i.e. - housing, tuition, books, food, etc....) then going back over there and providing what this terrible country (the people) has paid for. If I am not mistaking I don't think these programs are in place for these people to come over here and get trained 100% free of charge only to have that training leave. Couldn't we apply the monies from that to go to the programs you deem a higher priority. I know my kids, who I pay, and they soon will pay, taxes on everything they will get in life (or maybe not get anything from having to stand in line behind illegals) will NOT receive any luxuries as a free education or a job because they are not minorities. Unless the T.O.P.S. program is still around when they get into college they will be "deprived". Will the system be there to help my (your) kids under your plan for reform, Erick?
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 17:21:32 GMT -5
Ideally, yes. I just hope the war will be over by then.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jun 18, 2007 18:08:58 GMT -5
Can you say MEDICAID?
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Post by Erick "Zap" Szczap on Jun 18, 2007 18:18:51 GMT -5
Christian, did you get the pic I sent you?
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jun 19, 2007 9:45:52 GMT -5
Yes
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jun 30, 2007 0:02:25 GMT -5
When people start talking about entitlements, it drives me crazy. Where do you draw the line? I'm entitled to freedom, so I'm also entitled to the government providing everything for me? Do we start with healthcare, move on to free homes, cars and harleys?
Pretty soon we have 30% of the people working hard and paying taxes, in order to pay for all the entitlements for the other 70%. Then that 30% realizes what is going on and they say no more and get in line for all the free stuff too! Then the whole system going down the tube. What happened to... I'm responsible for myself and my family?
Of course insurance is important to cover the unexpected. We buy insurance to cover our homes, our cars and healthcare insurance should be no different. Everyone should have to have coverage. Mass. seems to be setting an example in this area. That way you don't end up with those that don't have insurance busting the bank. It drives me crazy when I see someone with no insurance going to the ER, because their kid has a cold, run up a big bill $$$$$$ that they never plan on paying and walk out feeling OK about it because they are entitled. While I who pays for healthcare insurance takes my kid to the MD the next morning when his office is open because I'm trying to keep the cost down and I know he's not really sick enough for the ER.
Some people may use Canada as the healthcare example...because everyone is covered...but everyone also pays much more in taxes....and the bottom line is that NOT everyone is provided ALL healthcare. They have a TRUE two level system...those with money and those without.
EXAMPLE: You have an MI in Canada and you need bypass surgery...you get your name put on a list for bypass surgery...but there is no guarentee that you will get the surgery..in fact the government has factored in that a certain percentage will die before they get that bypass surgery...there by keeping the COST of HEALTHCARE DOWN! So..your MD says you need the surgery within 1 week or you most likely will not make it...but the list is 3 weeks long...what do you do? If you have money...you call an MD in the USA...schedule your surgery and pay for it! I see it all the time in Seattle! IF you don't have the money you are out of luck...but you are still covered by HealthCare! ;-)
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Post by Ian "The Grippler" Carnegie on Jun 30, 2007 0:26:56 GMT -5
In 98 I was stabed in the stomach with a bear bottle in Montreal. I said crap this sucks I walked in the Hospital I saw a Doctor They clead and sterilized the wound did exrays and stiched it up. I stayed overnight for observation next day I took a cab home. Guess how much it cost me. $8.50 for the cab ride. I don't see the problem with that. your point is mute. Canadian medicare or Blue cross witch I also have will send you to the states for surgery. But if They didn't and I had to wait well at least thats an option. Better than having no option. States side can't afford it well to bad. At least you got your freedom
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Post by Ian "The Grippler" Carnegie on Jun 30, 2007 0:33:32 GMT -5
why the extra coverage? Bluecross is given to military members. the same in the states I think?
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Post by Mat Helmer on Jun 30, 2007 8:22:58 GMT -5
Here's some info on our "free" health care... We pay taxes, Alberta Healthcare and Blue Cross Insurance. For me, the AHC and BCI comes to about $200 per month, for a family of 4. Then add taxes... nothing is free, even in Canada. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_CanadaCanada's health care system is a publicly funded health care system, with most services provided by private entities. It is important to understand that it is not a true public system, even though the government and others have called it so.[1][2] In Canada the various levels of government pay for about 70% of Canadians' health care costs, which is about average for a developed country. Canada is unusual in that the government pays for almost 100% of hospital and physician care, but contributes very little in areas such as prescription drug costs, dental care and Emergency Medical Services in Canada.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_comparedQuality of health care
How the two countries' health care systems compare in terms of quality is a debated question and depends on the criteria used in the comparison. Canadians are, overall, statistically healthier than Americans and show lower rates of many diseases such as various forms of cancer. On the other hand, evidence suggests that with respect to several illnesses (such as breast cancer) those who do get sick have a higher rate of cure in the U.S. than in Canada.
In terms of population health, life expectancy in 2006 was about two and a half years longer in Canada, with Canadians living to an average of 79.9 years and Americans 77.5 years.[24] Infant and child mortality rates are also higher in the U.S.[24] These differences may be due in part to differences in the way agencies compile their statistics. Some comparisons suggest that the American system underperforms Canada's system as well as those of other industrialized nations with universal coverage.[25] For example, a ranking by the World Health Organization of health care system performance among 191 member nations, published in 2000, ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th, and the overall health of Canada 35th to the American 72nd.[26] In an international comparison of 21 more specific quality indicators conducted by the Commonwealth Fund International Working Group on Quality Indicators, the results were more divided. Canada performed better on 7 indicators; such as survival rates for colorectal cancer, childhood leukemia, and kidney and liver transplants. The U.S. performed better on 10 indicators, including survival rates for breast and cervical cancer, lower suicide rates, and avoidance of childhood diseases such as pertussis and measles.[27]
Some of the difference in outcomes may also be related to lifestyle choices, and this is true of all health comparisons between the two countries. Americans have slightly higher rates of smoking and alcohol consumption than do Canadians[24] as well as higher rates of obesity.[28]
The comparatively large number of uninsured in the U.S. also contributes to the difference in overall quality and performance. Overall, those who lack insurance in the U.S. were much less satisfied, less likely to have seen a doctor, and more likely to have been unable to receive desired care than both Canadians and insured Americans.[citation needed]
A Canadian systematic review concluded that differences in the health care systems of Canada and the United States could not alone explain differences in health care outcomes.[1]
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jun 30, 2007 20:35:33 GMT -5
I didn't mean to say the Canadian healthcare system is bad, so I say "sorry" to my armwrestling buddies from the north...if that is how it came across.
My post was aimed at anyone in the USA that thinks we will fix all of our healthcare problems by doing a Canadian system in the USA. I think both systems have good and bad points.
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jun 30, 2007 23:50:36 GMT -5
Mathew,
I agree with your statement "nothing is free" which is the key point I was trying to get across as well, I might have said, Nothing is free, even in the USA" to make the same point..that if people think they are entitled to healthcare for free they are mistaken...it will cost them in the end...either pay more taxes to cover the "free" healthcare and let the government run the system or pay for healthcare insurance and be in control of it yourself.
Again, my concern is with those who want to get "free" healthcare at the expense of others who are trying to play by the rules and take care of their families by buying insurance then paying high premiums because of the uncovered expenses of uninsured who use the system without paying into it.
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