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Post by Chris Kaufman on Apr 1, 2011 13:39:13 GMT -5
Hmmmm. I'll have to do a bit of research on the history of religion, cause I honestly don't know how long some form of religion has been around.
Kind of a weird question. Does God have to be a moral God? Or I guess should he/she be?
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 13:42:44 GMT -5
My God does.
But let's examine that question outside realm of Christianity.
"god" the creator if life and all that is in it.
The great commandor and guide.....
Whatever he wills.... Is moral.
Morality does not define God....regardless the religious glasses you look at him through.
God defines morality
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 1, 2011 13:43:28 GMT -5
Are you saying that if there was no Christianity than there wouldn't be a true standard of morality? Ryan,Chris did not say "Christ" but "Christianity" so when did Christianity start? your moral values have been established 2000 years ago or from the first man? according to my belief my moral values have been there since the first man. |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 13:43:43 GMT -5
Its not my standard i believe its a human standard. But it's your believe of what a human standard should be. Not all humans live by that standard therefore it is solely your standard. |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 13:45:39 GMT -5
Are you saying that if there was no Christianity than there wouldn't be a true standard of morality? Ryan,Chris did not say "Christ" but "Christianity" so when did Christianity start? your moral values have been established 2000 years ago or from the first man? according to my belief my moral values have been there since the first man. I agree with that Engin. I was simply answering the question in the context that I believed he meant it. |
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Apr 1, 2011 14:04:23 GMT -5
My God does. But let's examine that question outside realm of Christianity. "god" the creator if life and all that is in it. The great commandor and guide..... Whatever he wills.... Is moral. Morality does not define God....regardless the religious glasses you look at him through. God defines morality Just doing a bit of Googling I came across this and found it interesting: "An important objection against the existence of the god of the Bible focuses on this god’s character. The god of the Bible isn’t simply an ideal abstraction; in Western religious traditions we find many stories about what God has done or commanded believers to do. Often such actions are contrary to basic moral principles; at the same time, God is described as the source of morality. How can this be? What are we to make of a god which is supposed to be morally perfect and represent a moral ideal when, at the same time, religious tradition makes this god out to be a moral monster? How can a god that commands mass slaughter and rape also be the source for morality in the universe? These are important questions because religious theists in the West believe both the truth of the claim that God is the source of morality and of the claim that God has committed or commanded atrocious acts which people today would recoil in horror from. If these two claims are contradictory, the people are worshipping a god that cannot exist. An argument against such a god can be formally stated thus: 1. God is morally perfect (premise) 2. Any act that God condones, commands, or causes is morally permissible or mandated (from 1) 3. Any act that God forbids is morally impermissible (from 1) 4. The Bible accurately reveals many acts condoned, commanded, or caused by God 5. In the Bible there are acts which God forbids but which God also condones, commands, or causes 6. It is incoherent for a morally perfect being to condone, command, or cause immoral acts 7. The God of the Bible is incoherent and, therefore, cannot exist. This can be described as a contradiction between three ideas common to many Western religious systems: What God commands is moral, the Bible is accurate in its description of God’s actions and commands, and there are certain acts (like rape, murder, and slavery) committed or commanded by God that are immoral. Any of the above premises or inferences might be challenged, but not in a manner which would preserve the likely existence of the God of the Bible. Thus, even strong and effective challenges to this argument would in the end lead us to the same conclusion as the argument itself: the God of the Bible cannot or at least probably does not exist. Either way, the theist’s position should be abandoned." Not trying to debate the existence of God, I'm just looking at the Morality issue in the above article. |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:15:57 GMT -5
Though I appreciate the list of argument.....
I gotta say that's an inaccurate way of looking at it.
For simplicity sake ....
God says thou shalt not kill.... Yet God commands armies. And wipe face of the earth clean.
Is this a contradiction of Gods morality? It would seem to be on the surface but it absolutly is not!!
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:17:38 GMT -5
You tell your kids not to hit each other.....
So then is it wrong for you to discipline them by spanking them?
Absolutely not...
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Apr 1, 2011 14:21:21 GMT -5
You tell your kids not to hit each other..... So then is it wrong for you to discipline them by spanking them? Absolutely not... I would disagree with this, but I believe in leading by example. Of course I don't have kids, but when I do, I want them to respect me not because of my back hand. Holy crap, this thread could go on about a million tangents. ;D |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:23:38 GMT -5
Ok maybe that's a while separate debate lol.
But anyway....
I don't see anywhere in the bible where God condoned the rape of anyone!!
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:26:33 GMT -5
The bible says the lord giveth and he taketh away.....
The God of the bible is a full loving God... And at the same time a wrathful God.
This is not a contradiction of morality. In fact they compliment each other.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:27:37 GMT -5
Let's not confuse morality with the Holiness of God.  |
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Apr 1, 2011 14:30:27 GMT -5
Ok maybe that's a while separate debate lol. But anyway.... I don't see anywhere in the bible where God condoned the rape of anyone!! Here's just a few from a website I found: Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB) They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB) As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14) They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT) |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:30:58 GMT -5
I do not consider myself a religious person. But one who has faith in and relationship with a true and living God who gave his son as a blood sacrifice to cover my sin....... BECAUSE of my immorality and my lack of ability to live a pure and moral life.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 1, 2011 14:33:24 GMT -5
Mmmm Im gonna have to get back to you on that one...... |
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