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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 5, 2011 15:06:59 GMT -5
Rick started a very good thread. I'd like to discuss it in the way Rick intended. Religion and God are two different things. I think it is very healthy to step outside of religion to discuss God. God, in this way of thinking, is the Creator. Let's leave it at that long enough to discuss existance or non-existance of such a creator versus the alternative, which would be that chaos organized itself into a repeatable system on every level that we can identify order. From a purely scientific perspective, I believe that all science points to a creator. The only way to ignore intelligent design is to so severely limit the sample you observe that you can isolate the parts without seeing them as pieces of a greater whole. In other words, you have to look at an atom and pretend it is the only atom of its kind. I say that, because if you admit that this particular atom is identical to countless other atoms then you have repeatability. Repeatability is the first undeniable step toward a system. A system implies design, and designs must have a designer. A stable system, in any form, must have outside input or the system will degrade into chaos. (2nd Law of Thermodynamics.) I believe this post is enough to prove Gods existence for me. |
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Post by John Wilson on Apr 5, 2011 15:12:27 GMT -5
To find God (The Creator) we don't need to look at all the things we don't understand. Let's look at the things we do understand- and understand well. After all, God either exists - or does not exist - for all things. There is no point in confusing the argument. Let's reduce the variables to what we can explain and talk about whether or not those things had to be created or could have happened from chaos.
Your nerves. The ones in your body and mine. Nerves transmit signals to and from the brain. Very simple devices, really. The Nerve Ending is the sensor, and the nerve is the wire that sends the signal from the Nerve Ending to the brain. Let's just talk about the most simple piece of it: the wire. It doesn't get more simple than that, does it? One function. Carry signals. We can cut the nerve and observe that it no longer carries the signal. Basic stuff.
How does a nerve carry a signal? By electricity, just like a wire. How does a nerve produce electricity to carry the signal? Also simple: Na-K (Sodium - Potassium) pumps. The chemical exchange between sodium and potassium creates a positive and a negative differential across a gap. (Voltage) Voltage is what allows current flow. Each little sodium potassium pump oscillates to continuously pass a signal.
Signals have to be interpreted, so the signal is encoded. If you've ever used a network you understand how addressing works. You can send infinite messages across a wire to exactly the right node on that network, and only to the exact node you want to talk to. The signal you send has an address built in, followed by the message. The intended node sees its own address and accepts the signal. Nodes without this address ignore it.
So your brain can send a signal to twitch your index finger and your thumb won't move. This is important, or else every single neuron in your body would have to have its own nerve link to the brain that doesn't touch any other nerves. Your body would be a gigantic pile of nerves (wires) - your body could not stand under the weight of the nerves alone. Your body uses shared nerves like trunklines to go to many smaller nerves. The downside to this, of course, is that if you sever a nerve close enough to your brain you lose all of the motor / sensory downstream of the break.
So we know that our nerves use a very similar system to an industrial communications network like Profibus, Ethernet, DeviceNet, etc... only infinitely more complex and reliable than those networks ever thought of being. All accomplished using water and salt. That's pretty ingenious.
Not only is it ingenious, it is the same in every one of our bodies. (Ooh.. that 'repeatability' thing I keep talking about. Worse yet, a stable system.)
When you start talking about signals (communications) you cannot deny intelligence. After all, a decipherable message is the very definition of an intelligent communications system. No decipherable message sent from one node to another, and then repeated, can be random.
So, in something we understand very well we have to find intelligence. Intelligence with a clear meaning is controlled cause-and-effect. That means desire, and desire transcends all randomness. Desire is logic.
Everything I've described can be found in just a few millimeters of your body, millions and millions of times over. One tiny little piece of nerve. Now consider the eye. The tongue. The brain. The body. THE COSMOS.
Repeatable, systematic, and predictable. Three words that have no room for chaos.
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 5, 2011 17:39:39 GMT -5
quote;
In 1915 Einstein proposed that time was relative, that the passage of time altered according to space, the speed of the person travelling and the force of gravity at that moment. The six-day period can be thought of as six periods. Because, taking into account the relativity of time, a "day" refers only to a 24-hour period experienced on Earth under current conditions. Elsewhere in the universe, however, at another time and under other conditions, a "day" could refer to a much longer period of time.
In the first period of the universe, the passage of time took place much faster than that with which we are familiar today. The reason for this is that, at the moment of the Big Bang, our universe was compressed into a very small point. The expansion of the universe and increase in its volume ever since the moment of that explosion has extended the borders of the universe to millions of light years. Indeed, the stretching of space ever since that moment has had very important ramifications for universal time.
The energy at the moment of the Big Bang slowed down the flow of time 1012 (one million million) times. When the universe was created the speed of universal time was higher up to a million million times, as time is experienced today. In other words, a million million minutes on Earth is the equivalent of just one minute in universal time.
When a six-day period of time is calculated according to the relativity of time, it equates to six million million (six trillion) days. That is because universal time flows a million million times faster than time on Earth. Calculated in terms of years, 6 trillion days equates to approximately 16.427 billion years. This is within the estimated range for the age of the universe.
6,000,000,000,000 days/365.25 = 16.427104723 billion years
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Post by Michael Wells on Apr 5, 2011 17:47:13 GMT -5
We owe China about 15 million million dollars!
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Post by Michael Wells on Apr 5, 2011 17:47:39 GMT -5
Engin, that wasn't a mock. Was just pickin
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 5, 2011 17:49:33 GMT -5
it sounded like criticising your politicians  |
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Post by Dan Benoit on Apr 5, 2011 17:59:12 GMT -5
Lmao I was just talking about that what if the dinosaur thing is a big hoax? Were there bombs in the twin towers? Anyone ever watch building 7? Did 2 pac die? ALL OF THAT CAN BE FOUND OUT WITH EXPERIMENTS AND SCIENCE. There is no way to prove god is real because he is not. I like having a set of beliefs to keep everyone having morals and ethics but no ones watching overhead. If hell were real it would be full by now. It just blows my mind someone is gonna sit there and belittle me over a made up person. If anyone finds proof of a god I will delete my account on here. I bet all these people that hate on others that dont believe wouldnt do this: If they scientifically found out how everything happened, you would not bet your family on it that god was real.
heres the deal: the topics have been about god and religion for the last 2 days, and thats all the non-religious people have talked about. While on the otherhand others that are sure god exists are BASHING us for giving our opinions and making jokes about things that probably did happened. Nobody thats a non believer has hated on anything. Some others on the other hand, Jesuses grandkids have tried to make us out to look like idiots??
It shouldnt be that way. But it is that way because there is no evidence and people just straight hate for no reason. Im gonna stand my ground with evidence. Another thing someone needs to explain to me because im a ra-tard, what are all these things that people say have gone perfect forever because of god? I wonder if thats why so many innocent people get cancer and die every year?
Im young and I probably dont have as much life experience as others but FORGET THAT and look at the FACTS.
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 5, 2011 18:01:01 GMT -5
At the end of the day its all pointless, just as the universe is. Not trying to be negative, but what is the purpose of the existence? There can't be one. if that was the case then we mankind would not try to progress about everything on this earth but only try to stay alive like animals do. |
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Post by John Parton on Apr 5, 2011 18:02:28 GMT -5
The bible is specific about the length and source of measuring days... Genesis 1: 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. The evening and the mornig where Ryan? The sun wasn't even there the first day  |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 5, 2011 18:12:01 GMT -5
The bible is specific about the length and source of measuring days... Genesis 1: 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. The evening and the mornig where Ryan? The sun wasn't even there the first day Touché Let me go a little deeper.... I'll get back to you lol |
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Post by John Parton on Apr 5, 2011 18:16:03 GMT -5
Dan I mean you no disrespect, but science contsantly changes it's mind about what is right. Do you know that carbon dating as well as other dating of the same type were done on rock samples of various types from Mt. St. Helens. Now the rock were of a known age, but when tested they were found to be anywhere from 1 1/2 million years old to 3 1/2 billion years old depending on the type of rock. That is the kind of science we are depending on. The pictures used in the science books to show how life evolved are nothing more than cartoon characters. The bones they called the breakthrough from Lucy were found to be partly pig bones. I was a mathmetician when I was young and as I stated here before the possibility that a big bang or any other accident formed anything constructive is 1 to the ten thousanth power. 1 to the 39th power is by all physical standards of math impossible! No accceptable scientific constant is used throughout their hypothesis, which pretty much means they are making up and changing those as they see fit. Now to believe all of that one has to really be a man of faith! I was by the way wondering what measurement you used to state that hell would be full if there was one |
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 5, 2011 18:43:48 GMT -5
for me its all about deserving the eternal life by faith and works.faith is recognising your creator as your lord and works are to prove our obedience.we follow the same logic on this earth.we get tested when we want to reach important things,to prove that we deserve it or not.
works alone can not give eternal life,for not recognising the law but setting your own rules is not acceptable even on this earth.
are you allowed to live a life against the law in your nation? would they allow you to drive a car without recognising the state and deserve it's driver license,even if you would be the best driver on this earth?
even truth and false,honesty and dishonesty,good and evil are enough for me to believe in GOD.the positive ones are from GOD and negative ones are from devil.
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Post by enginterzi on Apr 5, 2011 18:55:02 GMT -5
I was a mathmetician when I was young and as I stated here before the possibility that a big bang or any other accident formed anything constructive is 1 to the ten thousanth power. John, why could big bang not have been the way that GOD created the universe? |
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Post by Ryan Thames on Apr 5, 2011 19:18:10 GMT -5
I heard one preacher say "big bang? Sure... God pulled the trigger"
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Post by TK on Apr 5, 2011 19:18:34 GMT -5
I was a mathmetician when I was young and as I stated here before the possibility that a big bang or any other accident formed anything constructive is 1 to the ten thousanth power. John, why could big bang not have been the way that GOD created the universe? 21- 30 “ Do not the none believers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of mass), before we clove them asunder? …” Engin, In my youngers days this was my opinion. As I grew older of course that changed. I do look into the sky sometimes and wonder WTF! How did all this happen? It's a wonderful mystery! What if we're ALL wrong? Too bad Jesus didnt have an IPhone:) TK |
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