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Post by John Wilson on Feb 7, 2012 10:13:15 GMT -5
Very interesting thread, I understand how this topic could be offensive to some , I don't think that's the intent of people supporting a change, to me it's obvious something's wrong when most of this countries legends/elite have no desire to compete in our nationals or worlds. When was the last time team USA won a world team title? ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) Is this because we can't compete ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) I don't think so. IMO this single reason , should make ALL of us interested in some type of change!!!!!!! Excellent point, Kenny. I think Ron Bath said it best. "How many times do you want to spend two thousand dollars out of your pocket, take a week off from work, to travel to worlds so you can win a medal?" Or lose on elbow fouls, etc etc etc. It's cool to say you went. It's cool if you really want that title. But aside from that, exactly what is the point? If I had the option to go to Zloty or to ArmWars and make some money, it's a no brainer. Pay out of pocket to play the WAF amateur game, or go pull an actual Pro event. That's exactly why I cannot understand this thread. To me, it is a race to turn all armwrestling into the WAF model. And in my view, the WAF model is: 1. not marketable 2. has no payoff 3. has no spectator appeal 4. is mired in bureaucracy to point that nothing can be improved even when it is a known problem. (50% loss rate due to elbow fouls, when the elbow pads are the known issue) Change is inevitable. NO... it is ESSENTIAL. But the first thing people should consider is what the end result is going to look like. You have to have a clearly defined goal or else it's all just a giant waste of time.
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Post by Karen Bean on Feb 7, 2012 10:13:26 GMT -5
Also guys I know it seems very important to some to have the label of "Pro" but think about a few things. I've seen many a top level armwrestler interviewed and state "I turned Pro in X year" only to have the interviewer ask the proverbial question of "oh you're a pro - how much money did you make last year" and then there goes any credibility that top level armwrestler had right out the window. None of us are Pro Armwrestlers. Maybe that fact could change at some point in time in the future, but it doesn't exist now.
I understand the need to keep the guys that have no confidence in themselves and are only out for a piece of plastic to take home out of the Novice classes. This is a must but this falls on the promoters. Some promoters have long established rules regarding this and do enforce it. Others do not. I think the main issue is to speak up. Not on a message board but to the promoters themselves. If you are at an event and know a competitor has signed up for the Novice class and you believe they should not be allowed in it, then go say something. Tell the promoter who the person is and why they should not be able to compete as a Novice. There are a lot of pullers that basically stay in their own back yards in order to be "king of the hill" and the promoter may not even know them.
Membership dues, as I've stated, worries me simply due to the fact that our economy is so horribly bad and will continue to be so for quite some time in the future. No one has a magic wand to be able to fix it instantly, it's going to take a long time. As such, our sport is even harder now for our competitors to be able to travel and compete, much less build and grow new competitors.
I think Gabe's on to something here, but I also think he could do it without charging the fees. In other words, crawl before you try to break out in a dead run.
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Post by Rob Vigeant Jr. on Feb 7, 2012 10:49:21 GMT -5
I like the earning a pro card thing
Lot of good ideas on here that would work
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Post by Chris Kaufman on Feb 7, 2012 11:23:46 GMT -5
I understand the need to keep the guys that have no confidence in themselves and are only out for a piece of plastic to take home out of the Novice classes. This is a must but this falls on the promoters. Some promoters have long established rules regarding this and do enforce it. Others do not. I think the main issue is to speak up. Not on a message board but to the promoters themselves. If you are at an event and know a competitor has signed up for the Novice class and you believe they should not be allowed in it, then go say something. Tell the promoter who the person is and why they should not be able to compete as a Novice. There are a lot of pullers that basically stay in their own back yards in order to be "king of the hill" and the promoter may not even know them. Quick idea to expand your point Karen: In some BJJ tournaments, if the fighter is obviously better than the level he's competing, the REFEREE will stop the match and move the fighter up. Some idiots get pissed, but ultimately, IT IS A COMPLIMENT! I think this could be established VERY easily at all of our tournaments. The refs see everything, and should easily be able to tell. Problem solved, next problem. ;D
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Post by Denise Wattles on Feb 7, 2012 11:37:20 GMT -5
Where did you get the idea that $50K has anything to do with the Olympics?
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Post by David Owens on Feb 7, 2012 13:09:12 GMT -5
yes Herman spell it out so we can pick your posts apart since we have been around longer than you ![:-X](http://www.maine-armwrestling.com/emoticons/vomit.gif) we all know the problems are there it has been spelled out a million times on a million threads but because I love to argue with Karen and I care about the progress of the sport I will do it again 3 nationals - it doesnt matter the level of the competetion, it is silly to have three nationals in a sport and we look that way to the rest of the world. Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservations, what I am saying is that they believe having a event with a good turnout or better prizes than most is more important than the integrity of our titles in the US. maybe they are right I do not share their belief, I think they could change the name and still have great events but thats just my honest opinion class clarification- its a common topic that is brought up over and over and the the question has been posed would you try to come to an agreement with other promoters on clarifying what is novice ,amateur, open, pro? would you conform to one standard ruling for the greater good of the sport?.....most common answer, NO and NO "our way works for us" you can armtv it and leonard spells it out, I have been over it in pms with Karen and got the exact same answer.....nope wouldnt even consider it rules - now I understand there have been slight variations to rules in certain orgs, but lets just settle on a set and train to those rules, if my shoulder crosses centerline in waf rules its a foul, but under AAA rules I can get in my opponents lap(calm down travis) as long as my elbow is on the pad and im holding onto the peg, just an example but its killing our guys at worlds and even at unifieds because many people are not aware of the rules .....I DONT CARE WHOS RULES ARE RIGHT, just pick one and lets stick to it toe stepping - FACT there are too many tournaments in the US too close togather aimed at the same group of pullers, I am all for more and more events but we need to limit the number of pro or cash events so the ones we do have do not have 4 or 5 people in a class cause frankly it pisses me off everytime it happens and it happens alot, its not the promoters fault but there simply too many of them now, ask certain promoters and you will find this to be very true....when it comes to pro events less is more, I suggest one or two money events a year per state, I dont mind traveling if the event is worth my time but right now armwrestlers are spread thin trying to support all these events, meanwhile you can hardly find events for legit novice pullers? I'm sure there is more but these are some major issues and I have been talking till I'm blue in the face and always get the same response.........insanity= doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome I appreciate the response David, but my questions were to Herman as I genuinely cared to hear what someone that is fairly new and seemingly unbiased has to say However, I will address 2 things that you have stated: FACT - I have NEVER said this "Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$" because it is completely and totally not true. If you were indeed and in fact so concerned about events being scheduled the exact same day as others David, you would have never scheduled the event in Nashville the same time as Florida State - a long standing event that is always the 1st or 2nd weekend in December and has been for 15 YEARS! And yes, people that go to the FL event also go to the TN event which makes them choose. Karen I didn't schedule the mcac to conflict with florida state....in fact I didn't schedule it at all, and I didn't even run it or attend it for that matter, last year it was not scheduled the same day as florida state, you might remember as you we going to ref before you got snowed in Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by David Owens on Feb 7, 2012 13:37:47 GMT -5
yes Herman spell it out so we can pick your posts apart since we have been around longer than you ![:-X](http://www.maine-armwrestling.com/emoticons/vomit.gif) we all know the problems are there it has been spelled out a million times on a million threads but because I love to argue with Karen and I care about the progress of the sport I will do it again 3 nationals - it doesnt matter the level of the competetion, it is silly to have three nationals in a sport and we look that way to the rest of the world. Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$ NOW in their defense I'm not saying its because they are personaly cashing in on these events although I have my reservations, what I am saying is that they believe having a event with a good turnout or better prizes than most is more important than the integrity of our titles in the US. maybe they are right I do not share their belief, I think they could change the name and still have great events but thats just my honest opinion class clarification- its a common topic that is brought up over and over and the the question has been posed would you try to come to an agreement with other promoters on clarifying what is novice ,amateur, open, pro? would you conform to one standard ruling for the greater good of the sport?.....most common answer, NO and NO "our way works for us" you can armtv it and leonard spells it out, I have been over it in pms with Karen and got the exact same answer.....nope wouldnt even consider it rules - now I understand there have been slight variations to rules in certain orgs, but lets just settle on a set and train to those rules, if my shoulder crosses centerline in waf rules its a foul, but under AAA rules I can get in my opponents lap(calm down travis) as long as my elbow is on the pad and im holding onto the peg, just an example but its killing our guys at worlds and even at unifieds because many people are not aware of the rules .....I DONT CARE WHOS RULES ARE RIGHT, just pick one and lets stick to it toe stepping - FACT there are too many tournaments in the US too close togather aimed at the same group of pullers, I am all for more and more events but we need to limit the number of pro or cash events so the ones we do have do not have 4 or 5 people in a class cause frankly it pisses me off everytime it happens and it happens alot, its not the promoters fault but there simply too many of them now, ask certain promoters and you will find this to be very true....when it comes to pro events less is more, I suggest one or two money events a year per state, I dont mind traveling if the event is worth my time but right now armwrestlers are spread thin trying to support all these events, meanwhile you can hardly find events for legit novice pullers? I'm sure there is more but these are some major issues and I have been talking till I'm blue in the face and always get the same response.........insanity= doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome I appreciate the response David, but my questions were to Herman as I genuinely cared to hear what someone that is fairly new and seemingly unbiased has to say However, I will address 2 things that you have stated: FACT - I have NEVER said this "Fact Karen and Leonard have both stated numerous times that taking away the name Nationals from their events would cost them sponsers and probably entrees both of which equal $$$$$" because it is completely and totally not true. If you were indeed and in fact so concerned about events being scheduled the exact same day as others David, you would have never scheduled the event in Nashville the same time as Florida State - a long standing event that is always the 1st or 2nd weekend in December and has been for 15 YEARS! And yes, people that go to the FL event also go to the TN event which makes them choose. Had to go back and look at my pms, and you were right you didn't say anything about money or sponsers being the reason, it was the other two questions I posed that got almost identical answers, for this question about nationals your answer was that there is not way for all three orgs to host nationals because what would you call it.....I don't really care what you call it, usaf,aaa,usaa nationals seems reasonable to me........the second half of your answer was that if the usaa nats and aaa nats replace the event with another name they are not combining the events because they still exist, my response to this is yes a great event will still exist in their place if you will, but the one nationals will get a far greater number of people supporting the event because it will be without a doubt the one and only united states national championships and have the best and fullest classes of any tournament in america....jmo of course.....so I appoligize it wasn't the money issue with aaa Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by travisrobinson on Feb 7, 2012 16:54:09 GMT -5
and i thought i would never see Davey,Denise and Karen on the same thread again!!!!....i need to see Leonard please!!!!
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Post by Derek Smith on Feb 7, 2012 17:16:16 GMT -5
So step 1: Make the sport exciting to watch?
Step 2: Make it easier to get 'the AW bug'?Unify?
Step 3: Eliminate unnecessary hurdles?Unify?
Step 4: Create an obvious, defined, sensible, road to becoming the TRUE number one puller? Unify?
These are some random ideas that have been popping in my head as i read. What do you guys think our 'checklist' should look like?
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Post by David Owens on Feb 7, 2012 17:28:27 GMT -5
So step 1: Make the sport exciting to watch? Step 2: Make it easier to get 'the AW bug'?Unify? Step 3: Eliminate unnecessary hurdles?Unify? Step 4: Create an obvious, defined, sensible, road to becoming the TRUE number one puller? Unify? These are some random ideas that have been popping in my head as i read. What do you guys think our 'checklist' should look like? Lol it sounds good, but try beating your head against a brick wall first you will probably have a better chance of making progress Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by Gabe Moore on Feb 7, 2012 17:56:47 GMT -5
Ok..we're beginning to beat a dead horse. I'll read through each post, take notes, gather ideas, and conclude a potential plan of action(out of the box, remember).
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Post by David Owens on Feb 7, 2012 23:17:02 GMT -5
Also guys I know it seems very important to some to have the label of "Pro" but think about a few things. I've seen many a top level armwrestler interviewed and state "I turned Pro in X year" only to have the interviewer ask the proverbial question of "oh you're a pro - how much money did you make last year" and then there goes any credibility that top level armwrestler had right out the window. None of us are Pro Armwrestlers. Maybe that fact could change at some point in time in the future, but it doesn't exist now. I understand the need to keep the guys that have no confidence in themselves and are only out for a piece of plastic to take home out of the Novice classes. This is a must but this falls on the promoters. Some promoters have long established rules regarding this and do enforce it. Others do not. I think the main issue is to speak up. Not on a message board but to the promoters themselves. If you are at an event and know a competitor has signed up for the Novice class and you believe they should not be allowed in it, then go say something. Tell the promoter who the person is and why they should not be able to compete as a Novice. There are a lot of pullers that basically stay in their own back yards in order to be "king of the hill" and the promoter may not even know them. Membership dues, as I've stated, worries me simply due to the fact that our economy is so horribly bad and will continue to be so for quite some time in the future. No one has a magic wand to be able to fix it instantly, it's going to take a long time. As such, our sport is even harder now for our competitors to be able to travel and compete, much less build and grow new competitors. I think Gabe's on to something here, but I also think he could do it without charging the fees. In other words, crawl before you try to break out in a dead run. I dont think we should be looking at this as a fee, I am 100% with Bob Brown if this money does nothing else but pay for our team to go to the world championships I would be happy to pay $50 bucks a year, maybe then the Ron baths and John Brzenks of the world would find it worth while to go to unifieds and worlds, I think we should all be pushing for having the best possible team to represent the US, there will never be money in it but we would probably get alot better response if it wasnt costing them anything to make the trip either, so my question is how much money on average would it take to pay for the team US to go to worlds, entree fees, travel, lodging, food.......Bob Brown....anyone ....what would it take money wise?
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Post by Brent Norris on Feb 8, 2012 0:17:25 GMT -5
On average $3k per puller. I'm all for having Team USA's trip to WAF paid for each year but, should it be priority #1? My biggest goal in the sport is to win a WAF title but, should our biggest goal be to find a way to advance our sport? Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread WAF doesn't seem to attract new sponsors or cause fast advancement of arm wrestling. So coming up with ideas for us pullers to support (pay for events) that will get more attention should be our first priority.
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 0:36:10 GMT -5
On average $3k per puller. I'm all for having Team USA's trip to WAF paid for each year but, should it be priority #1? My biggest goal in the sport is to win a WAF title but, should our biggest goal be to find a way to advance our sport? Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread WAF doesn't seem to attract new sponsors or cause fast advancement of arm wrestling. So coming up with ideas for us pullers to support (pay for events) that will get more attention should be our first priority. Well I think people like robert drenk and neil pickup are working that side of it, personally I am not really big on a push for the olymipics, the olymipics has many many many sports not many of which has much more popularity than armwrestling......can anyone name a pro pole vaulter, or a high jumper, or a speed skater? What are the major benefits of an olympic movement, legitimacy? I think anything that gets more people to unifieds is a plus .......as far as increasing popularity of the sport, it has to be a show and it has to be put in front of an already existing audience....charging people to get in to an event has been tried and failed.....put a supermatch in front of 15000 people in between periods of a hockey game showcase the product and hand out the websites and you will see a big rise in interest, repeat........the nashville preds have local talent on stage in between periods ...surely someone like robert or neil can get our guys in front of that crowd.......not just hockey but anywhere there is already a crowd, we can't bring the crowd to armwrestling but surely we can bring armwrestling to the crowd Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by mactelle on Feb 8, 2012 2:19:13 GMT -5
On average $3k per puller. I'm all for having Team USA's trip to WAF paid for each year but, should it be priority #1? My biggest goal in the sport is to win a WAF title but, should our biggest goal be to find a way to advance our sport? Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread WAF doesn't seem to attract new sponsors or cause fast advancement of arm wrestling. So coming up with ideas for us pullers to support (pay for events) that will get more attention should be our first priority. Well I think people like robert drenk and neil pickup are working that side of it, personally I am not really big on a push for the olymipics, the olymipics has many many many sports not many of which has much more popularity than armwrestling......can anyone name a pro pole vaulter, or a high jumper, or a speed skater? What are the major benefits of an olympic movement, legitimacy? I think anything that gets more people to unifieds is a plus .......as far as increasing popularity of the sport, it has to be a show and it has to be put in front of an already existing audience....charging people to get in to an event has been tried and failed.....put a supermatch in front of 15000 people in between periods of a hockey game showcase the product and hand out the websites and you will see a big rise in interest, repeat........the nashville preds have local talent on stage in between periods ...surely someone like robert or neil can get our guys in front of that crowd.......not just hockey but anywhere there is already a crowd, we can't bring the crowd to armwrestling but surely we can bring armwrestling to the crowd Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards Probably the ONLY post I will agree with David Jr. All this talk about Armwrestling in the Olympics is a broken record...... It wont do anything different to this sport.....I dont see many Curling Tournaments going on in the U.S. And even if Armwrestling DID make it to the Olympics, what then??? I will predict alot of jealousy for any of our Americans that will be chosen to compete....same thing that goes on now, but at a larger scale. Armwrestling is a great and exciting sport, but having this sport in the Olympics wont change a single thing... For example......There is over a thousand members on this board alone.....and on a day to day basis, ONLY 15 to 20 members actually post or create new threads...this is a perfect example why this sport in particular is where it is....We have a LARGE group of men and women that love the sport, that will drive to compete, but thats it... Nothing more and nothing less...... there are ALOT of sports out there that are not in the Olympics....and they are VERY successful....they have a huge fan base and they generate ALOT of sponsors and money. I hear "I WANT I WANT I WANT" But thats it, there is no doing. what is on everyones mind is success for this sport and a spotlight on the top pullers in our Nation. Robert Drenk and Bill Collins the UAL made some HUGE breakthroughs with this sport.....But Hardly any of you made the trip to support it...UAL Tahoe was a HUGE event that could have changed EVERYTHING in this sport...But No one was there....so I think the real Question isnt Why isnt Armwrestling in the Olympics.......I think the real question is why isnt there more armwrestlers supporting this Sport?
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