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Post by Brent Norris on Feb 8, 2012 16:28:11 GMT -5
On average $3k per puller. I'm all for having Team USA's trip to WAF paid for each year but, should it be priority #1? My biggest goal in the sport is to win a WAF title but, should our biggest goal be to find a way to advance our sport? Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread WAF doesn't seem to attract new sponsors or cause fast advancement of arm wrestling. So coming up with ideas for us pullers to support (pay for events) that will get more attention should be our first priority. Well I think people like robert drenk and neil pickup are working that side of it, personally I am not really big on a push for the olymipics, the olymipics has many many many sports not many of which has much more popularity than armwrestling......can anyone name a pro pole vaulter, or a high jumper, or a speed skater? What are the major benefits of an olympic movement, legitimacy? I think anything that gets more people to unifieds is a plus .......as far as increasing popularity of the sport, it has to be a show and it has to be put in front of an already existing audience....charging people to get in to an event has been tried and failed.....put a supermatch in front of 15000 people in between periods of a hockey game showcase the product and hand out the websites and you will see a big rise in interest, repeat........the nashville preds have local talent on stage in between periods ...surely someone like robert or neil can get our guys in front of that crowd.......not just hockey but anywhere there is already a crowd, we can't bring the crowd to armwrestling but surely we can bring armwrestling to the crowd Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards Totally agree about the olympics may be too much of an effort compared to how much it would benefit us. Our time may be better spent in another direction.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 8, 2012 16:46:45 GMT -5
David, this may be a stupid question, but why don't you ever say anything about "UAL" or "ARMWARS" when you go on your "UNIFY THE RULES" rants, you've supported the UAL as I would love to be able to do, but the rules are not WAF and you say nothing about them, so why? Will they use WAF rules this year for Unifieds? Just wondering. ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) I think that question should be answered by Bill Collins or Robert Drenk. David Owens Jr. is just a fan of the UAL just like me and many others... I do have a question for you Mike.... You said you would "love to be able to support the UAL" what do you have against them? Lack of funds to get there, especially with the short notice of an event that they've had ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 16:49:14 GMT -5
I'm with Brent.
Armwrestling as it exists now is a very valuable thing. It has to exist on the local level to get new pullers. It has to exist on the Nationals / Worlds (WAF style) to provide world-class amatuer competition.
What I think should be developed further is an All-Pro venue. It doesn't have to be Vendetta / Supermatch driven either. I'm talking about just a handful of events a year that are only Pro. Remember, we need the all-in-one family affairs we have now. We need all of them we can get. They are the lifeblood of the sport. But that will never sell.
I'd like to see 4 events a year where teams compete. The teams don't have to be regional. Just like professional sports teams, you would have a puller for each position. (Light, Middle, Heavy.. maybe one for Left and one for right, that's up to the team.) These teams would meet at 4 big events a year. These events could run in an hour or two max and be very action oriented, WAF rules out the window. Keep what makes sense, eliminate everything else. Tailor it completely to action.
It is a lot easier to make payouts bigger when there are only a handful of prizes, the rest of the money going to cover flights so that nobody has to go out of pocket.
No, everyone could not be a part of it. But everyone would be able to try out for a spot or challenge for a spot once a year. Then the team is the team for a year. You keep winning or you lose your spot next year to a challenger.
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 16:51:38 GMT -5
I guess I'm saying we don't need to change what the sport is now. We need a whole new layer that is entertainment driven.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 8, 2012 16:51:44 GMT -5
They always use WAF rules at Unifieds. My opinion on this particular subject is that rules for the majority of tournament armwrestling should be the same. However when you put something on TV or out for public viewing, it must be entertaining or no one will watch. Some rules would need to change. I would answer mikes question but bob already did They do use waf rules except for supermatches which are for entertainment......the only rule that is different is the call which is don't move go instead of ready go Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards So, Mr Unify Everyone, it's ok to have different rules for entertainment then?
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 16:52:34 GMT -5
![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) I think that question should be answered by Bill Collins or Robert Drenk. David Owens Jr. is just a fan of the UAL just like me and many others... I do have a question for you Mike.... You said you would "love to be able to support the UAL" what do you have against them? Lack of funds to get there, especially with the short notice of an event that they've had ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I don't think it should be held against anyone for not supporting this event or that one, I would love to be at the black bull this weekend but can't afford it, I had a choice redding or so cal and redding was closer and cheaper for me so it was a no brainer......that's why I say there are simply too many tournaments aimed at the same target....I cannot go to a tournament a month or even every two......4 a year is close to my limit and I'm sure many are this way.........armwrestlers are spread thin trying to support all these events and then when we don't show we are a-holes ....we should need a good excuse as to why we don't attend an event Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 16:54:35 GMT -5
Any event that is geared to be the Mother Of All Events needs 6 months notice. I like what the UAL is doing, but a lot of it tends to be short notice and very California-oriented. Nothing wrong with it, but the attendance results are showing this to be true.
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 17:47:15 GMT -5
I would answer mikes question but bob already did They do use waf rules except for supermatches which are for entertainment......the only rule that is different is the call which is don't move go instead of ready go Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards So, Mr Unify Everyone, it's ok to have different rules for entertainment then? Yes think for supermatches its ok because you are trying to entertain, this is not only ual, I have been to a couple other tournaments where the supermatch rules were very relax compared to the actual tournament I think a better question is why not have the same rules, and I have the answers in text but basically it boils down to "history" "we don't agree" ..........history is history let's acknoledge it think back on it use it to learn from and leave it in the past......does a what a couple people agree with or don't agree with qualify as good enough reason to not come togather as a sport? ....I don't think so but that's just my o.....we are closer now than we ever have been and I appreciate that but feel the reasons we aren't really there are slightly selfish ones Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 20:37:44 GMT -5
Also and only because I don't want to sound like I'm jumping back on the bash the AAA campaign I think I need to clarify
I have asked questions about unifcation between the two biggest armwrestling orgs in existance......the USAA and the AAA, togather they make up a huge % Of the tournaments in the US, my thinking is that if these two orgs could find a way to completely unify everything ,rules,class regs, equip regs, and scheduling then the rest of the arm world would follow suit. Neither of them are remotely interested in such a thing and in some cases seem to be leaning from it for no other reason than they just don't want to work togather...maybe with good reason, I was not there, I don't know what these relationships are like.....I don't push for unity because I am a AAA hater, I have talked with Karen thru pm and I get where she is coming from on some things ,not so much on others but like I said I don't agree with my wife all the time soooo
When it comes right down to it I want what is best for the sport, imo that is not a pepsi vs coke competetion when most of the world is drinking water
Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by John Wilson on Feb 8, 2012 20:59:06 GMT -5
David, I understand what you are saying. I do. But you are working from a misperception which may explain why some folks are disagreeing with you. It's not that they disagree with what you would like to see, it is that they disagree with your original premise.
The AAA and the USAA do not represent most of the events in the US. That's the first point, but it's not the important point.
The real underlying issue that I think you are confused about is that even if those two organizations merged and did everything exactly the same, it would have no effect on this sport. None. It doesn't work like that, and I'm not sure why you think it does.
There are two events, TWO, per year that must conform to a standard. That is the WAF World Championships and the Unified Nationals. The WAF board determines the rules and format for the World Championships. By necessity, the Unified Nationals must follow these rules as set forth by the WAF board, since the Unifed Nationals is the WAF Worlds qualifier.
No other event in the United States has anything, whatsoever, to do with those two events or the requirements thereof. People use basically the same rules so that armwrestlers aren't confused at their events. But unless an event is a feeder event for the WAF there is no compulsion, nor any reason, to follow suit. Either you are training for Worlds and you hit events that lead up to Worlds, or you are not. If you are not, then following WAF rules to the letter is superfluous, not to mention very few refs on a local level even know WAF rules.
I know you want to make the sport better. But you also need to appreciate that not everyone feels that the WAF is the model to follow.
In your efforts to congeal all armwrestling into one rigid mould, forming a union to enforce this rigid mould... what you are really talking about is starting your own organization because no promotor outside of your organization's influence is bound to do anything they don't want to. So you can only control those under your authority.
Let's say you accomplish what you are saying and you create this organization that, I am suposing, follows the WAF model. When the WAF eventually changes rules and tables, then it will be YOUR organization that is being dictated to change by people who have no part of it.
You are asking for every organization to cave to your desires, and you haven't justified why it needs to happen other than your belief that it will make things better. Ideas are great, but you have no skin in the game at all. You cannot dictate to people what to do when it's not your skin. But you are free to form your own organization and run your own events any way you see fit.
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Post by Scott Fry on Feb 8, 2012 21:06:14 GMT -5
I'm with Brent. Armwrestling as it exists now is a very valuable thing. It has to exist on the local level to get new pullers. It has to exist on the Nationals / Worlds (WAF style) to provide world-class amatuer competition. What I think should be developed further is an All-Pro venue. It doesn't have to be Vendetta / Supermatch driven either. I'm talking about just a handful of events a year that are only Pro. Remember, we need the all-in-one family affairs we have now. We need all of them we can get. They are the lifeblood of the sport. But that will never sell. I'd like to see 4 events a year where teams compete. The teams don't have to be regional. Just like professional sports teams, you would have a puller for each position. (Light, Middle, Heavy.. maybe one for Left and one for right, that's up to the team.) These teams would meet at 4 big events a year. These events could run in an hour or two max and be very action oriented, WAF rules out the window. Keep what makes sense, eliminate everything else. Tailor it completely to action. It is a lot easier to make payouts bigger when there are only a handful of prizes, the rest of the money going to cover flights so that nobody has to go out of pocket. No, everyone could not be a part of it. But everyone would be able to try out for a spot or challenge for a spot once a year. Then the team is the team for a year. You keep winning or you lose your spot next year to a challenger. I love this idea, what about taking it a step further and have qualifying tournaments for these events. Do three or four in each region and base it on a points system.
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Post by David Owens on Feb 8, 2012 21:31:06 GMT -5
David, I understand what you are saying. I do. But you are working from a misperception which may explain why some folks are disagreeing with you. It's not that they disagree with what you would like to see, it is that they disagree with your original premise. The AAA and the USAA do not represent most of the events in the US. That's the first point, but it's not the important point. The real underlying issue that I think you are confused about is that even if those two organizations merged and did everything exactly the same, it would have no effect on this sport. None. It doesn't work like that, and I'm not sure why you think it does. There are two events, TWO, per year that must conform to a standard. That is the WAF World Championships and the Unified Nationals. The WAF board determines the rules and format for the World Championships. By necessity, the Unified Nationals must follow these rules as set forth by the WAF board, since the Unifed Nationals is the WAF Worlds qualifier. No other event in the United States has anything, whatsoever, to do with those two events or the requirements thereof. People use basically the same rules so that armwrestlers aren't confused at their events. But unless an event is a feeder event for the WAF there is no compulsion, nor any reason, to follow suit. Either you are training for Worlds and you hit events that lead up to Worlds, or you are not. If you are not, then following WAF rules to the letter is superfluous, not to mention very few refs on a local level even know WAF rules. I know you want to make the sport better. But you also need to appreciate that not everyone feels that the WAF is the model to follow. In your efforts to congeal all armwrestling into one rigid mould, forming a union to enforce this rigid mould... what you are really talking about is starting your own organization because no promotor outside of your organization's influence is bound to do anything they don't want to. So you can only control those under your authority. Let's say you accomplish what you are saying and you create this organization that, I am suposing, follows the WAF model. When the WAF eventually changes rules and tables, then it will be YOUR organization that is being dictated to change by people who have no part of it. You are asking for every organization to cave to your desires, and you haven't justified why it needs to happen other than your belief that it will make things better. Ideas are great, but you have no skin in the game at all. You cannot dictate to people what to do when it's not your skin. But you are free to form your own organization and run your own events any way you see fit. Lol great post John, my talk of forming a union is only because its the only way anything would ever change, and it would take a true union of all armwrestlers and they would all have to want the change ....and being honest sometimes I just like to ruffle feathers as it is the only way to get some to respond.......I do think mike west should have to show his grandmasters card at all tournaments ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I have to disagree on some points, having all one set of rules would eliminate refs who do not know the rules....they would have to learn them correct?......waf is the standard, yes they are going to change from time to time hopefully for the better, why would we not change with them? What purpose does it serve to be different? And I have started my own org john,passed it to a great group of guys and its doing very well, and I can tell you as the sport changes so will they, why fight it? ......would all of armwrestling be ok with someone starting an org and making a whole new set of rules and equip? Would they support that more or less than what is standard? No more straps at the hands this one ties yours wrist togather, no more elbow pads, instead a stall that holds you elbow and bicep in place so you can only move your forarm in a pressing motion......all in favor say I.....no thank you, shouldn't we all be training for worlds, if not then shouldn't we at least want to make it easier for people who are? Sent from my DROID2 using ProBoards
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Post by Mike West on Feb 8, 2012 21:44:10 GMT -5
David, I understand what you are saying. I do. But you are working from a misperception which may explain why some folks are disagreeing with you. It's not that they disagree with what you would like to see, it is that they disagree with your original premise. The AAA and the USAA do not represent most of the events in the US. That's the first point, but it's not the important point. The real underlying issue that I think you are confused about is that even if those two organizations merged and did everything exactly the same, it would have no effect on this sport. None. It doesn't work like that, and I'm not sure why you think it does. There are two events, TWO, per year that must conform to a standard. That is the WAF World Championships and the Unified Nationals. The WAF board determines the rules and format for the World Championships. By necessity, the Unified Nationals must follow these rules as set forth by the WAF board, since the Unifed Nationals is the WAF Worlds qualifier. No other event in the United States has anything, whatsoever, to do with those two events or the requirements thereof. People use basically the same rules so that armwrestlers aren't confused at their events. But unless an event is a feeder event for the WAF there is no compulsion, nor any reason, to follow suit. Either you are training for Worlds and you hit events that lead up to Worlds, or you are not. If you are not, then following WAF rules to the letter is superfluous, not to mention very few refs on a local level even know WAF rules. I know you want to make the sport better. But you also need to appreciate that not everyone feels that the WAF is the model to follow. In your efforts to congeal all armwrestling into one rigid mould, forming a union to enforce this rigid mould... what you are really talking about is starting your own organization because no promotor outside of your organization's influence is bound to do anything they don't want to. So you can only control those under your authority. Let's say you accomplish what you are saying and you create this organization that, I am suposing, follows the WAF model. When the WAF eventually changes rules and tables, then it will be YOUR organization that is being dictated to change by people who have no part of it. You are asking for every organization to cave to your desires, and you haven't justified why it needs to happen other than your belief that it will make things better. Ideas are great, but you have no skin in the game at all. You cannot dictate to people what to do when it's not your skin. But you are free to form your own organization and run your own events any way you see fit. WOW....couldn't have said it any better, you are the MAN John ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by jonathanvazquez on Feb 8, 2012 23:32:40 GMT -5
David, contrary to what you believe, ALL events benefit our sport! As for having 3 Nationals being because it's beneficial dollar wise to promoters - you're saying then that the AAA, USAA and the USAF were formed strictly for money? And you know this to be fact? How? You seem to be one of very very few David that advocate boycotting. How very sad and shallow on your part. Many an event has been around long before you were even born with promoters that have supplied their own money, sweat, and backbone yet you come along with your vast knowledge and experience and want boycotts. Yes, that's the answer in building our sport - be completely blind to who has given a damn about this sport and what they've done for it. Makes good sense to me. A majority vote? How David do you propose to achieve a majority vote when all of your members won't ever be in the same place at the same time in order to cast a vote? Or do you plan to spend money to send out ballots multiple times per year to allow those paying members to vote? Also David bear in mind - the USAF board members are only there for ONE event per year! Pretty hard to make life altering decisions when you hold one event per year and it follows the same rulings as the world body. I do not agree on the point that "ALL events benefit our sport." Events that are incapable of filling out classes do not benefit the sport. Events that allow 10 year veterans to pull novice and amateur classes do not benefit the sport. Events scheduled on the same day splitting competition do not benefit the sport. Events that give out a national title without national level competition do not benefit the sport. I'm sure we could go on and on... I agree with Everything you wrote Herman. AND there is obviously a lot more. Vazgen had a great point in another thread. The "Bar sport" way the vast majority of the public perceives us is REALLY hurting our growth. Anyone who personally knows me, knows that last statement HAS to be true.
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Post by Shaun Brock on Feb 12, 2012 22:55:06 GMT -5
I do like the the whole union idea But it was mentioned earlier in this post who is going to put in the time and paper work documentation , recipts, total income for the quarter not to mention legals all of this is a lot of work which is commonly paid for by the union like the dues I always pay due to my job. lots of cost and work it isn't like it will be taken off of your paycheck by a computer every week bi weekly or whatever. and by adding a membership fee it would then turn into a private organization .. I do like the thought and the ideas which are coming from this whole thing and I hope a great fool proof idea will come from all of this !
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