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Post by enginterzi on Sept 30, 2004 2:36:58 GMT -5
yes John,you are right.generally Kevin has been placing above Selerais.i listed Selerais above Bongard just because of their meet in Vegas.i thought i was listing them by their 04 performances.if i need to list them by their general performance then Bongard surely would be at the top.excluding you he has been the top armwrestler under 198 without any doubt for he has proved this anywhere and against anyone.
Christian,to toproll and lovering your shoulder below elbow pad are not same things.esspecially if the guy has a problem to strech his arm! to make it straight.two of my friends has beaten George in a second.Dursun beat him in Springfield worlds twice and Ozgur beat him in Canada worlds again in an eye blink.i beat Ozgur a month before Canada worlds in a second at turkish nationals and this s why he competed 80kg at the worlds.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Sept 30, 2004 10:49:21 GMT -5
When i gave my list in I didn't do it in an particular order. i guess that was my mistake. Engin, Sorry, but George CAN stretch his arm straight out. He did it for me at the Harley Pull this year. He thinks its funny that people think he has a permenent bend in his arm. And as you stated , he can be beat! And one more thing, sometimes pullers shoulders do drop below the elbowpad. BUT people don't complain, ONLY against him. Because he is hard to beat. If its legal its legal.  |
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Post by enginterzi on Sept 30, 2004 12:18:53 GMT -5
he and other ppl told me he couldnt and he was going to have an operation to straight it,i guess they were making fun!!
when shoulder goes below the pad arm needs to be broken to be touched to the pad! he can be beat with a quick movement till gets his shoulder below table.im sure that im not the only one who thinks its not legal and soon or late it will seriously be discussed.
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Post by Mark Harrison on Sept 30, 2004 12:33:53 GMT -5
George's style, while different, and subsequently effective, is legal. He is a specialist, and like all specialists they can be beaten by a technically diverse puller, eventually. An ulnarly deviated pronating toproll with lightning fast speed will accomplish this, as indicated by Engin's comments. Would contraversy remain around George's style if he wasn't so successful? Highly unlikely.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Sept 30, 2004 12:47:52 GMT -5
Your ABSOLUTELY right Mark, if his stlye wasn't successfull no one would care! |
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Post by enginterzi on Sept 30, 2004 12:53:33 GMT -5
at 2001 Italy worlds i pulled against a guy from Russia and it was a final match.after the go he was dropping himself under the table and straighting his arm that needed to be broken to touch the pad or i had to lift all his body weight up to the table.i was feeling all 70kg ( 154) as back pressure with my hands.at the middle of the match i started to hear all strange sounds from my elbow,if he didnt make a mistake to raise himself earlier than he should then i would have lost.i won but then i had an elbow surgery and i still am suffering from this.im sure no one can be proud of this to say that it was a great style.so reason that i discuss it is not because it is great to me.forgive me all,but i hate when i see somebody is armwrestling like that.if you were me you would understand how i feel.i welcome any comments about myself,its not a good looking armwrestling at all.
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Post by Mark Harrison on Sept 30, 2004 13:03:34 GMT -5
The inherant difference between George's style and what you've described in your post is that George's arm isn't straight. Although his arm angle is obtuse, it's certainly not straight. I find it amazing that someone can even pull with a straight arm without writhing in pain from a possible hyper-extension of the elbow. There is, though, a fundamental difference between the two styles.
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Post by enginterzi on Sept 30, 2004 13:05:04 GMT -5
the problem is having your shoulder below pad,not straighting.
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Post by Mark Harrison on Sept 30, 2004 14:04:45 GMT -5
the problem is having your shoulder below pad,not straighting. Why is that a problem? Few are successful utilizing this technique, and those that are successful are still beatable. No, it's not as aesthetically pleasing, I'll admit, but that's hardly grounds for making it "illegal". Reimer is an interesting choice he is tough, I have a lot of respect for him so he is a possible, but the last time he came down and pulled Petaluma in the 198 class he took a third, behind a 198 Scott Flemming and 176 Kenny Hughes. How does Mike and Todd get left out of that group? If I remember correctly Luke fouled out with Kenny near center table and also pulled 5 classes that day. Although Luke fatigues very slowly, a tournament situation is slightly different than grudge matches. Keep in mind as well, that was two years back. |
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Post by enginterzi on Sept 30, 2004 14:11:05 GMT -5
he gets beat before he can lower his shoulder,then starts the problem and illegal style.yes,it means that he s beatable as long as he pulls legal.when it becomes illegal then he s not beatable because his shoulder s below table.
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Post by Mark Harrison on Sept 30, 2004 14:47:08 GMT -5
The issue with your complaint Engin, is that this "unbeatable" position isn't unbeatable at all. One of the aspects of armwrestling is that no two styles are exactly the same. Fundamental dynamics behind why techniques are effective can be similar, but are never (or rarely) the same. If people became unbeatable by dropping their shoulder below the elbow pad the entire sport would be moot. It would become a war of attrition and bladder control over anything else, since the two combatants wouldn't move past center. A parallel pin is entirely possible from this dropped position, as is a slipout in losing position. In order for this technique to be justly identified as illegal, it would have to hold numerous unfair advantages - which it simply doesn't; otherwise it would be more prevalent within the sport.
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Post by Jacob Abbott on Sept 30, 2004 21:31:32 GMT -5
I have pulled & reffed guys that have had a straight arm & shoulder below the pad. It seems like the only way there arm is going down is by breaking it or them giving up. So when I'm the reff & a guy has his arm straight & shoulder beneath the table, I tell them to stand up that they are in a break arm position. What would you do in your tournaments ?
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Post by Bill Cox on Oct 1, 2004 0:12:21 GMT -5
The problem with George's style is that it is Illegal in Canada. Also if he was pulling at one of my events the match would be stopped for unsafe or dangerous position and he would receive a foul. I believe that rule applies in a few other assoc but I would not swear to that fact.  |
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Post by enginterzi on Oct 1, 2004 1:40:52 GMT -5
when they lower their shoulder below table they get an extra strength by hanging themselves on their triceps and free their elbow from the pad.this s why they automatically pull their elbow all way back edge of the pad.other wise their elbow needs to look separated from the pad at least 2 inches.i agree with Jacob,they need to be given fouls.
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Post by simon on Oct 1, 2004 11:55:59 GMT -5
I have only seen 3 people really do this move effectively/intelligently, George, Kenny Hughes and Tony Villa, and I have never seen anyone injured doing it, now to me I do not care much about where the guys shoulder is after the go, but I do not believe that intentionally floating your elbow above the pad in a very measurable manner while you ride back on your tricep near your armpit should be allowed.
Just my 2 cents.
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