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Post by Harold "Rattlesnake" Ryden on Dec 10, 2004 7:14:56 GMT -5
You seem to have spent some time researching and finding these inconsitisies in the bible to your convenience Engin... My question to you is, How many inconsistants are in the Quran, and/or have you researched them as well? I for one would like to get my hands on this book to see what you beleive and how full of truth it may have too.
Your Friend, Harold
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Post by Tony Carpenter on Dec 10, 2004 8:03:56 GMT -5
im sorry, but that was a direct slander of Engin's religion and that's uncalled for
just so you know Harold. Muslims do use part of our bible in their faith so dont take it as a personal attack when he says there are inconsistances.
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Post by gambit on Dec 10, 2004 9:00:00 GMT -5
I don't think it was a slander to Engin's religion. I see it as Harold asking if Engin researched the Quran as he has the Christian bible? IMO.
Not everything is perfect. I am sure, somewhere and in someway, the inconsistencies are weighted in both books.
I have enjoyed reading these posts. Everyone seems set on their faiths and directions, and when it comes to religion I feel that this conversation has definitely held its civility.
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Post by simon on Dec 10, 2004 10:26:58 GMT -5
I would agree with Allen, the question being raised was if there were any inconsistencies in the Qur'an as well as the bible and I did not read it as a slam on the Muslim faith, I think it speaks to the fundamental concern with the details of any religion documented by a mere mortal man much less generations of them.
Emphatically there are going to be portions that seem diametrically in opposition to each other, some are slight, maybe just a matter of how the reader comprehends the phrases and some are to the point that at any level we as intelligent modern human beings cannot fathom the contradiction. Hence the problem with taking any of these writings too literally.
On a bit of a separate note, I had a phone conversation with Harold earlier in the week on many subjects including religion and given the arguably concerning extent of my experience in debating this subject, Mr. Ryden has an exceptional grasp of both religion and realism, it is one thing to quote scripture and bible verse it is yet another to be able to apply it in a meaningful manner to the context of our modern world.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Dec 10, 2004 11:25:03 GMT -5
Simon, I hope you and i are not on bad terms i did start getting a lil frustrated and i apologize. i think its good to have someone like you with your perspective in these conversations, as a nutreal. BUT, I believe everything in the bible literaly and i do not see any inconsistances. You may disagree but you are not looking at it as the word of God, just a book. When you look at it as the word of God you can then ask him why things are in there the way they are. when you ask God about the things that dont make sense to you and then he answers you it is an incredible and enlightening experience. Engin, I respect you truly and i am all about the truth. I am working on something right now to bring to you give me time im going to do a lil more resaerch, you must be open to the truth of God, and whatever happens dont get offended.
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Post by enginterzi on Dec 10, 2004 12:33:24 GMT -5
i didnt do any research to find inconsistants in the Bible.all i did was studying and trying to accept the faith in the Book.but unfortunately i have met clear inconsistants and had some study about religions to find out why men had to corrupt the original scripture.
yes i had studied Quran too.it has made the most sense in me,it knew my nature more i did about my ownself.so it was clear to me that this was from my CREATOR.i agree Tony,because i can feel the purpose that Harold has by asking me that question.i wish i had the english version of Quran to tell you the incredible miracles in the Book.no body can be a muslim and deny the bible at same time.i have faith in that it came from GOD for sure.my idea is that its not the original one that was given to the messengers.some parts yes but some parts arent.if i say that inconsistant parts from GOD,then i will offend GOD.
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Post by simon on Dec 10, 2004 12:39:14 GMT -5
No Ryan I respect your commitment to your beliefs and your position I may personally find fault in your logic no less then the fault you find in mine but we are certainly not on bad terms as far as I am concerned, not to sound weird but I have a great affinity for impassioned people. As I told Harold, historically conversations of this nature never end well for me, I am too stubborn, I have a hard time walking away until I am proven wrong or the other party admits I am right, so a debate of this significance seldom comes to any viable resolution, I should have learned that lesson by now. I walked away from it because it was consuming too much of my time and as I said in the beginning but failed to heed, a conversation like this is really not well suited for a message board, I apologize for any frustration I caused you.
Ryan that was not a shot at you or anyone else, it was a generalization, virtually anyone can read a bible and virtually anyone can quote a bible, hell I can do both, but I cannot begin to comprehend its words well enough to make sense of it much less be able to apply it to the world I live in, there in lies my concern with taking it too literally, though I do understand your position, to your point it really all depends on what perspective you are looking at if from when you read it.
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Post by enginterzi on Dec 10, 2004 12:46:44 GMT -5
Allen,by saying that both books have inconsistants in them you proved to me that you have studied both of them.is this correct?
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Post by Tony Carpenter on Dec 10, 2004 13:37:25 GMT -5
Harold I apologize, I jumped on you too quickly. Whether you were right or wrong is not my concern right now. I acted rude and I apologize.
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Post by gambit on Dec 10, 2004 16:12:27 GMT -5
Allen,by saying that both books have inconsistants in them you proved to me that you have studied both of them.is this correct? Engin, No, I have not read both books. When I say there must be inconsistencies in both books I mean that nothing is perfect in this world, even if it is the written-by-man word of God (not to say it isn't true). I am by no means an expert on religion; therefore, I cannot say for certain on any content of the Quran. There is a lot that I do not know and that is why I have enjoyed this conversation so much. I respect everyone's viewpoint on this subject...truly.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Dec 10, 2004 16:25:03 GMT -5
Numerical contradictions There are many numerical contradictions in the Quran. Can God make so much error in doing simple calculations?
How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?
Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …
Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days
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Post by Ryan Thames on Dec 10, 2004 16:26:33 GMT -5
Creation of the Heaven and Earth Which one was created first? As you will see in the verses below, Allah at one time says that Earth was created first and another time he says that the Heaven was created first.
Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….
Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth
Now, does it match modern science? Do you believe that, Earth was created first, after that, God created Heaven? Modern science tells us that? Or How come SEVEN firmaments (layers)? Modern science tells us that, actually there is no such thing Sky is no “roof” over us.
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Post by simon on Dec 10, 2004 16:31:31 GMT -5
I have read out of the English version of the Qur’an extensively all be it over a decade ago, I certainly did not study it per say and I would not claim to be exceptionally knowledgeable of it at all. I read a great many versions of religious text during that period. As I recall there were items in that version of the Qur’an that seemed to contradict other items in the same book, again this was from my perspective; please take into consideration what my perspective is.
With no disrespect to any religion I would find it normal and expected that there would be items in any modern bible that upon one persons interpretation could be construed as contradictory.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Dec 10, 2004 16:53:44 GMT -5
Sun-set and Sun-rise Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:
Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…
Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.
Serious scientific errors here! Firstly, it is scientifically accepted fact that, the Sun never go down in a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting “far away”. It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second Journey the place where it rises.
A resting place for Sun!? Quran 36: 38 And the sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise. Quran 36: 39 And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm leaf. Quran 36: 40 It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
Allah is indeed a big scientist. Where is sun and where is moon situated? Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other? Are the sun and the moon neighbors to each other? I have the answer for this error: Ancient Allah saw (bare eye observations) sun and moon traveling from east to west seemingly in the same Sky area or same path, without colliding, causing day and night etc. Allah hardly could imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by Sun’s rotation. Sun is stationary for Earth, because earth is stuck in the sun’s Gravity, like we are stuck in earth’s gravity. Allah never says any where in the whole Quran that, EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel earth’s rotation.
A resting place for sun WAS CONFIRMED BY HADITHS?
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421 Sahih Bukhari Hadiths: Abzur Ghifari (ra) narrated: one day Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked me, “Abzar do you know after setting where does Sun go?” I replied, I do not know, only Allah’s apostle can say better. Then Prophet (SA) replied, “After setting, the sun remains prostrated under Allah’s Aro’sh and waits for Allah’s command for rising again in the East. Day will come when sun will not get permission to rise again and Qeyamot will fall upon Earth”.
Can anybody tell me what is it? It was the superstitious belief of ancient people reflected in the Quran and Hadiths by Allah. A 10-year-old boy would not tell such fairy tale story today.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Dec 10, 2004 17:12:31 GMT -5
In the creation of the earth The bible says that he seperated the the waters. This im sure was way before they discover that a cloud is water. It states a certain number of the firmaments and as we see we look up at the clouds and then you fly above that and you will see below you and above you are certain layers.... i think that is neat. that is scientific. before the Knowledge of the science was there.. 6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7 . And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9. And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Verse 9 says that God holds back the ocean.... Isnt it strange that we find the gravitational force of the moon has a strong effect on the tides. Could that have something to do with God holding back the oceans.
My above post if they are offensive please forgive me they are not my words.
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