Contradictions...

[josephsirois]

Ryan I know I am kicking up a hornet's nest doing these things, but as an obligation to facts I have to present things such as these.

In an earlier post you said if the Bible had any contradictions, that they were minute. Whether or not the following would qualifty as a minute or major contradiction is up to the individual's perception, but in my eyes that answer is clear.

Jesus' last words

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

[Ryan Thames]

whats your point?

you cant see that he could have said them all?

[Ryan Thames]

Matthew Mark and Luke are called the synoptic Gospels

Syn- meaning together

Optamia (sp) - meaning to see

Synoptic to see together

it means they were closley related

these three gospels were written almost from the same perspectic given the indivual writters own personality

[Ryan Thames]

personally i dont see how that is a contradiction if it is, does it matter? He was still on the cross.

The matter of what he said doesnt save us. only his blood that was shed

[josephsirois]

Here's a question that you could help me answer, Ryan. When Jesus was crusified, was it through his hands or his wrists, I've seen both depicted.

[josephsirois]

Sorry if I've been a bit rude in these posts, Ryan, I probably owe you an apology. I don't wish to make anyone question their faith or make a mockery out of someone's faith. Being a former Christian myself, I know how seriously someone can take it, I did myself.

While personally I'm not convinced, but I'll be honest with you Ryan, I wish that I was. I envy people who have found their answers, whether they are a Christian, a Jew, or any other of the many religions. One of the most difficult things a person can face in this life is not knowing what happens after the body has deceased. For agnostics, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, we can only live in the moment and try to make our lives better and for others as well.

I've never found my place with "God", put in quotations to encompass all faiths, but that's not from a lack of trying. While I have been born again and then turning my back on faith I'm not sure where that leaves me in the divine court. Someone once told me that God would send me a sign, this was a man of faith that I highly respect, but that sign hasn't come yet. I am still very young though, so who knows what'll come next?

[Ryan Thames]

Your sign im sure has come many times in many ways you are probably refusing to accept it.

a wicked and pervese generation seeks a sign.

There was an instance in the bible were someone requested that a man be resurected to tell the world about christ but it was responded that they have the law of moses and all the prophets they wont even believe them why would they believe a man raised fromt he dead. I cant quite remember that specific passage i think it in luke.

Do you think it is impossible that God is speaking to you now and constantly?

and somesay through the hands but the bone structure wouldnt have been able to support it unless the wrists were tied with rope. others say the wrist.....it doesnt matter. totally irrelevant.

all that matters is that it happened. We cant worry ourselves with little insignificant things liek that unless of course we are doing a deep study on the situation.


Jospeh give me your definition of what it means to be born again...please

[josephsirois]

Whew.. that's a tough one, I don't know if I could actually define being "born again". I'll give it a shot though. I think going into a little bit of my history may help how I've come to see being born again in my mind's eye.

I was baptised as baby in the Roman Catholic church. I went to Sunday school and church often as a kid, having my communion and my reconsiliation, not my confermation though. Later in life I gave up on it, didn't really have much to do with it for a long time

When I was around 18 I started reading the Bible again, even read the entire New Testiment. I starting thinking about it more and more, and eventually accepted Jesus as my savior. I never went back to church, but being there never made me feel very comfortable. I guess that's my defintion of being "born again".

Eventually I fell back out of it again, now years later I am still here, no answers but somewhat content in my confusion.

[Ryan Thames]

I will have to address this response tomorrow i have school in the morning and its going to get deep.

Bill Maenza,
Ill try to be careful only for the sake that i have not been directly provoked.

[Steven Lareau]

Ryan do you mention to people in your bible college, the great conversations you encounter through this board? I'll bet that would make for some interesting conversations starters...

[Ryan Thames]

I dont know too many people at school yet.

some people from my church read it sometimes and my brotherinlaw.

[Ryan Thames]

BORN AGAIN......

John 3:
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This does not mean that you go to church and declare that you believe in the bible and therefore you are born again.

2Corinthians
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

When one is "born again" he becomes a totally new creation. And is no longer "bound" by the things of the flesh. or The "Sin Nature" but you now have and live in a "divine nature" have you ever noticed you dont have to teach a child to be bad. but you do have to teach them to be good?


2Peter1:
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Unless you are born again you cannot see or understand the things of God. When you are born again it is a powerful experience. not a religion to claim or charactistic of a personality. it is an action or event that takes place in a christians life upon accepting christ as lord and savior. And all things become new.

Im not to sure what the "roman catholic" definition of "born again" is. and i wont touch on that too much right now. But i think that it is a matter of works and i guess confirmation as a catholic.

I can tell you im a plumber by trade all i want but unless i know something about plumbing chances are im not a plumber. I can say I am or have been born again all i want but the fact that i claim doesnt make it so. But whether or not it actually happened is what determines whether or not someone is born again.

There is a church in houston texas Lakewood church many of you probably have heard of Joel Osteen. Hes one of those nice guy preachers that never offend anyone. of course you have to pay to be a member of his church and you dues are according to how close you want to sit to the preacher. up to $10,000 for a front row membership. (this information that i heard i dont know if it is absolutly true or not).
The point is after his television broadcast he declares that if you pray a certain prayer with him that you are "born again" but praying a prayer doesnt confirm someones new birth. The change in your life the absolute change is what confirms your new birth not your proffession of it or anyone elses. NOT EVEN THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH! except it be Jesus Christ. Where the Catholic Church declares they have the authority to declare such things. But like i said i wont spend much time on that.

[Bill Maenza]

Ryan,

I sincerely appreciate that you are choosing your words carefully. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church does not claim that they have the right to deem people "born again".

Maybe you are confusing this with being born of water (Baptism)? This is written in Jn 3:5 (Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.) It is also stated in Col 2:11-12 (In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead).

There are many places where Baptism is spoken of and not just for children. Again, this is Scriptural and not made up by Catholics.

You can also read the writtings of St. Hyppolytu of Rome (244ad): "Baptize first the children; and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" Or, Oriegen (244ad): the church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism also to infants. See also at the council of Carthage (252 ad) that the council condemed the opinion that infants must wait until the eigth day after birth to be baptised.

I could go on, but I think these more than clarify the misconception presented.

Bill Maenza

[Ryan Thames]

thank you Bill for clearing that up Like i said i wasnt sure of the catholic veiw on "born again"


HOWEVER.... ...John 3:5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You forgot to notice verse 6. hes talking about the same thing here He is not talking about baptism at all.

He is talking about water and flesh. the natural birth from ones mother (Oh my water broke!!!! ;D)and a spiritual birth from God thus the words "born again" it is a second birth.

baptism as an infant does nothing. The "dedication" of a child is not for the child it is a public announcment that that the mother and father vow to raise that child up in the ways of God. Baptism does not deem you "born again" and baptism as an infant is meaningless. again being born of water is refering to the natural birth from the mother. a dipping or in the catholic case a sprinkling our pouring does not make anyone born of water. that is a clear misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Honestly and im sure your aware of this, and i mean no disrespect, im not really that interested in what the "authority" of the catholic church says. The bible has more authority. and all the authority im interested in.

[Bill Maenza]

Ryan,

So you are saying that when John was in the river with Jesus...it wasn't "water" ? Come on now...I am glad you are passionate about your beliefs, but passion and sincerity doesn't make it truth. You have misconceptions about the Catholic faith. If you were to find 100 people in the country who hate the Catholic church for its beliefs I would be amazed. It is much easier to find people who hate the Catholic church due to their own misunderstanding of the teachings and doctrines. You fall into this group. As you were never a Catholic and never educated in the faith I can understand your misconceptions. It is however wrong to "speak" as an expert theologian when you haven't been there. No, I am not attacking you or saying I am a theologian yet alone an expert theologian, but trying to explain a point of view to someone who doesn't get it. Sought of like trying to explain colors to someone who is blind.

Bill Maenza