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Post by Harold "Rattlesnake" Ryden on Feb 1, 2005 8:12:32 GMT -5
Hey guys, my beleif on the subject of water baptism is just a way to publically say; I am making a decision to follow Jesus therefore my sins are "washed away". Baptising a baby is pointless, The child has to make the decision to follow Jesus on there own. The water is just a public statement the same way Jesus made it...Jesus was like 30 when he got baptised.
Harold
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 1, 2005 8:18:13 GMT -5
Harold,
Baptism places an indelible mark on the soul of an infant. This is done so in case (God forbid) the baby dies before being able to make the decision to follow Christ. They have been "marked" so to speak.
Bill Maenza
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 1, 2005 11:48:31 GMT -5
That aint in the bible bill.
When Jesus was baptized by John it was water but that is not when he was "born" of water. He was born of water and of flesh when mary gave birth to him. I was born of water and of flesh when my mother gave birth to me and becuase i was born with sin i had to be reborn in the spirit. When i gave my life to christ that made me born of the spirit. This is why Jesus said you must be born of water and of the spirit. As he in the next verse states that you must be born of the flesh to clarify that he was speaking of the natural birth. Not baptism.
there is a birth of water and flesh
there is a birth of the spirit
and there is a baptism of water
and a baptism of the spirit
these are four different events in a spirit filled christians life.
Id like to say i am fairly educated of the beliefs of the catholic church. I know many catholics and i have had deep discussion with many though alot of them were ignorant in everything some were very educated. We learned th catholic doctrines in my "doctrines" class at school. and we will also be learning about the catholic church in my "world cults and religions" class.
And to clarify when Harold says
"baptism is just a way to publically say; I am making a decision to follow Jesus therefore my sins are "washed away".
What he is saying is that the blood of Jesus washed away his sins and baptism is the public display and confession of that.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 1, 2005 12:12:48 GMT -5
Ryan,
With all due respect, you have bairly scratched the surface of Catholocism. The "education" that you are receiving is from people with their own version or interpretation of the Catholic faith. If you want an education, go to the source yourself. This is no different from being taught to dislike a group of people based on anything but what you have been told by someone else. For instance, have you ever been told something about someone and found it to be untrue? Same is happening here.
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 1, 2005 12:31:51 GMT -5
I understand your arguement. and defenitly respect your position on it. But i know what i know about the bible, which isnt much. And i do know what i know about the ctholic church, which also isnt much. But i know that the things i know about both dont line up in many ways to each other. Why? one is becuase the catholic church places too much authority in the catholic church, so you then must submit to their interpretation of scripture and religious practices. and deny yourself the truth of the word of God. But like i said we've been here before lets kill this one. Its always good talkin to ya Bill, I enjoy it. Ryan
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 1, 2005 12:50:44 GMT -5
Ryan,
I'll agree to let it go. Conditionally of course :-) This being an easy one...that you don't present your knowledge of the Catholic Church, but your understanding of it. Only because of your knowledge of the bible, some people might take your view as fact which it may/may not be.
And I know that you won't be able to sleep without getting the last word (see all of your previous threads), so I will finish my post here (unless of course you go witha parting shot).
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 1, 2005 14:51:10 GMT -5
Last word ;D
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Post by gambit on Feb 1, 2005 23:41:12 GMT -5
I will have the last...."WORD". That way you two will not be expected to follow. ;D
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 1, 2005 23:53:51 GMT -5
will do
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Post by Steven Lareau on Feb 2, 2005 0:11:12 GMT -5
lol
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Post by Elaine Blik on Feb 2, 2005 2:38:34 GMT -5
You're such a goofball, Allen! Give Nancy a birthday hug from me! See you in Vegas!
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Post by simon on Feb 2, 2005 14:03:53 GMT -5
If god is so all powerful and all knowing why does he need a mark or ritual to know which babies to accept, if anyone could even judge such a thing. A dead innocent infant cannot get into heaven because his parents were ignorant of the power of god? How can any righteous entity judge the innocent in any other fashion than as innocent, why would anyone accept a thought process that a new born that passes away un baptized, is doomed? Or is there some post mortem ritual that a priest can perform that will rubber stamp the baby with god’s approval? This logic is as bad as the Mormon Church baptizing great leaders of this country a century or more after their deaths because they were not Mormon and they do not want Abe Lincoln not to be able to get into their heaven. Why does god so badly need our commitment and capitulation that a baptismal ritual or mark is required, does not the entire thought process cheapen the perception of god, to simply a vain, vindictive, tyrant that will have your complete unquestioning pledge or you will be sent to the dungeon? "A leader that requires your subjection under threat of severe harm is heading down a path that you do not wish to follow." Does god really need all us to be subservient to him this badly? If so all he has to do is show up world wide one time and lay down the laws, that would solve everything, warring religions cannot really continue to fight for their beliefs if god appears on earth and tells whomever they are not fighting a just war and subsequently they will be punished, a great many ills could be stopped dead in their tracks with one cameo appearance by god. But I am sure he is far to busy, what with all of the miracles he produces on a daily basis you know like, the face of Jesus in a frying pan of scrambled eggs, or a plate of spaghetti on a billboard, the Virgin Mary in the bark of tree or a dried up apricot.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Feb 2, 2005 14:19:49 GMT -5
GOD? ?? God! Simon: I liked the " Jesus in a frying pan of scrabbled eggs "......LOL GOD? ?? God!
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 14:39:03 GMT -5
Excellent point simon on the infant baptism. You are totally correct. Especially with the parallael to the mormon church.
As for God Showing up once He did it at Mt Sinai and in Jesus. Thats twice. but people still argue about what happened and who his blessings fall on. The Christian View is that his blessings are for everyone who will acknowledge his Son. Even if God "showed" up again people would still argue about it.
And in fact he will come again and you wont doubt it to much after he does and then he will come even one more time.
The message of the cross isnt one of follow me or im going to destroy you. But one of you are falling i am here to help you. But we must acknowledge that we are falling in order for him to help us. Not that he wont help you unless you love him as if he is withholding love. But that we wont let him help becuase we think we got it under control.
Abe Lincoln loved Jesus not Joseph Smith and Lucifer!
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Post by simon on Feb 2, 2005 14:52:12 GMT -5
god would indicate "a god" as opposed to "the God" I am just trying to me mutally offensive to everyone. The under the scrambled eggs one in the frying pan is very recent...
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