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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 18:17:26 GMT -5
I like my buttons being pusshed ;D If you think anything youve said has offended or irritated me your far off. I say keep 'em coming
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Post by simon on Feb 2, 2005 18:22:56 GMT -5
I think we got past that long time ago Ryan.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 18:23:27 GMT -5
Ive seen the picture of Jesus in an oak tree or whatever it was.
ive seen other things i cant really remember anymore with the face of Jesus.
Ive also seen a statue of a cow produce milk in india.
I know of stories of eastern martial artsist "harnessing their chi" to strike through glass bottle breaking them in half without disturbing it.
I personally have seen several demons cast out of people. I have heard them speak and they spoke more than two worded sentences. And the power and authority of Christ in the believer silenced that demon and cast it out.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 18:24:04 GMT -5
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 2, 2005 19:43:27 GMT -5
Simon, I respect your beliefs and opions even though I do not share them. I am not looking to debate with you either. As Ryan knows, he is usually the point of my postings, my concern is that he presents himself as an authority on the bible and Jesus and pepretuates misconceptions about the Catholic faith of which he has limited and slanted knowledge. My postings are just a balance to his (without the fanfare).
Ryan, Give me some time and will quote back at you :-)
Bill
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Post by simon on Feb 2, 2005 20:03:35 GMT -5
Bill I respect your right to believe as you choose, that does not mean I won't have any questions about it, nor would I expect you not to question or challenge me. I appreciate your gracious demeanor and I am always eager to learn something.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 2, 2005 20:24:51 GMT -5
Simon , in response to your comment, "Does god really need all us to be subservient to him this badly? If so all he has to do is show up world wide one time and lay down the laws, that would solve everything, warring religions cannot really continue to fight for their beliefs if god appears on earth and tells whomever they are not fighting a just war and subsequently they will be punished, a great many ills could be stopped dead in their tracks with one cameo appearance by god." First off God doesn't want everybody to just be subservient to him, He wants us to love Him (as our God, and Jesus as our saviour), and the idea of God just come down to earth to show himself and lay down the law has already been done, Jesus came and did that, and the religious leaders of that time wanted him dead Also, the remarks about baptism, God doesn't need a seal or stamp to know who His children are, the Word talks about being at the age of accountablity ( when a child knows the difference from right & wrong ) at that point is when they need Jesus in their heart as Lord & saviour. Seems like people and churches are making getting to heaven so difficult when it's not, the Word says God's plan of salvation is so easy even a child can understand it, He simple wants you to love Him and have a personal relationship with Him
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 2, 2005 20:56:22 GMT -5
Mike,
I don't think any church is making it difficult to get in, they make it easy. What I am saying is that if we accept Jesus as Savior, but commit adultery, murder and etc, we don't just get to pop into Heaven. We still have to live according to the teachings of Christ.
And yes Ryan, we must still do good things (works). Notice I did not say that we could ever earn our way into Heaven. Just that we must do works. Need me to quote the scriptures?
Bill
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 2, 2005 21:00:44 GMT -5
Ryan,
As for the mediator: agreed. Catholic faith does not teach differently. We ask for intercession. Knd of like when you asked for prayers when your family needed them (and we prayed for you), that is what the Catholic faith teaches...intercession. We ask the Blessed Mother to interceed on our behalf, She is not asked to fulfill our requests. Similar to you wanting to argue with someone, but you don't because your mom asked you not to (get it?).
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 22:50:49 GMT -5
ok, I understand that you ask her intercession. And i am greatful for your prayers on my behalf. As i can intercede for you. I understand that concept. Still dont agree with it for different reasons.
Personally I see that as a not so personal relationship between me and the father.
I understand that works are required and necassary. But if you agree that it as far as our merit with God and our salvation it is worth nothing, then we have no arguement there. But works do not appease God nor are they a requirement for your forgiveness of future sin.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 2, 2005 23:16:03 GMT -5
Bill, when we truly accept Jesus as our Lord, it's more than just saying we believe in Him, we have to love Him with all our heart, and when we ask Him into ours hearts thats where the 'Born Again' part comes in, we're reborn in spirit, our spirit changes Jesus said " If you love me you will keep my commandments", and when we love Him with all our heart, we will love everyone else also, because of the love He puts in our hearts. As far as doing good works, that also comes from the desire you have to please God, not because your doing it to get to heaven or trying to make up for all the bad we've done. When I said some churches make it difficult, I meant by all the religious rituals some churches seem to have, it's simple, put God first in your life, then everything else falls right into place. Mike
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 2, 2005 23:32:24 GMT -5
Rituals such as infant baptism?
Confession in a dark box, to a man that dont need to know your business?
The Rosary?
When the office of the "priest" has been done away with after the crucifixion of Christ, we no longer need a human mediator between us and the Father. He made us the Royal Priest. That WE may go boldy into the throne room of God.
im not attacking just making a point.
I love Catholics, Baptist, Pentacostals and all them guys.
I love muslims, budhist and all them guys
I even love the mormon folk, even though that is the goofiest religion ive ever studied, God bless there hearts.
Bill,
Did you know Martin Luther had no intention of breaking away from the catholic church? He was excommunicated becuase he stood on the fact that the bible IS Gods Word and questioned the falibility of the church leaders. And that there are somethings that were not necasarry for salvation. he believed the church was the church. Whether you call it "catholic" or not. He simply wanted reform of the church. To get back to the basics of Salvation Grace by Faith alone. Yet he was rejected like the other prophets of history. No big suprise. A prophet is like a warning sign on the road to salvation if you ignore it it could cost you your destination.
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Post by Mike West on Feb 3, 2005 0:04:12 GMT -5
Ryan, well I wasn't going there Religion is man made, God doesn't want you to be religious, He wants a relationship with you. Seems like with so many religions, you can find one that fits your life style without having to change anything Problem with that of course is that God is the one who holds the keys to heaven, so I guess He should be the one we look to to get in
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 0:21:51 GMT -5
your right. Dont get me wrong i dont have a vendetta against the catholic church as bill thinks i do . I do however have a problem with "religion" and i must do as i am compelled to do to expose this the best i can. and i am aware that sometime i do get into a fleshly arguement that i ought not. There are serious religious problems in the protestant churches as well but they al come and go like fads. Its hard to pin point them and call them out. everybody claims there"movement" is a new move from God. G12- were they teach that becuase Jesus had 12 disciples, and the number 12 is used several times in the bible that there is a "new" revelation from God that every believer is a leader. and they all must get there twelve, and they all must get their 12 which is you 144 and so on and so forth. if they dont theyre lazy and unworthy of the kingdom. This also teaches that we are little christ. We are not little christs or little gods. if you question authority your in rebellion and going to hell and need to repent. I was involved in this one for 2 years. Secret- sensetive- they teach that you ought not mention the cross becuase it offends people that we out to be nice people and live good moral lives and invite people to come to church and we can love them to heaven. Problem with this is that they need to know there lost before they can be saved. They also hinder the spirit of God from moving in their services for fear of scaring people away. I pray in "other toungues" as in acts 2 and explained in corinthians. I will not hinder that happening in my spirit for fear of someone getting scared away. Purpose driven life- they teach that God loves you and has a purpose for you and bunch of other feel good stuff. Truth is God does love you and he has a plan for you but God gives you an answer, you are created to love and honor him and to reside in his presence and be obedient to him. the "purpose driven life" leaves you without an answer and your Gospel becomes a gospel of works always making you wonder whether or not you are in your "purpose" or if you are fulfilling gods purpose for yourlife and if your not must be going to hell.and thus leads you away from christ and him crucified.- also the methds of introducing the purpose driven life into the churches are straight from the occult and witchcraft. 40 days of purpose- basicaly a version of the purpose driven life that the baptist church picked up on and reworded. same hopelessness. all these are "movements" that offer a false hope and they are gimmics and methods to increase the size of the churches and to line out the pockets of the workers. There are many more im sure. I just wanted Bill to know that im just against SOME of the "works" of the Catholic Church. But i am against ALL that is unbiblical.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 3, 2005 7:13:33 GMT -5
Ryan,
RT: Rituals such as infant baptism? WM: I already covered this one.
RT: Confession in a dark box, to a man that dont need to know your business? WM: Mt 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. This is the power of Reconcilliation. Seems easy enough to me.
RT: The Rosary? WM: When praying, it sometimes helps to know where you are if you are doing more than one prayer. I know you will go here: Mt 6:7. The clear and numerous rebuttals are here: Mt 26:44 And leaving them, he went again: and he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word. 1 Thess 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
RT: Did you know Martin Luther had no intention of breaking away from the catholic church? WM: Yes he did. Did you know that he was obsessive convulsive? How about that he felt that he was so sinful that he felt that no matter what he did he could not stop feeling guilty and that is the reason HE ALTERED THE BIBLE and added the word alone after your favorite quote.
RT: He was excommunicated becuase he stood on the fact that the bible IS Gods Word and questioned the falibility of the church leaders. WM: Partly true, but not exclussively.
RT: To get back to the basics of Salvation Grace by Faith alone. WM: See above.
RT: I just wanted Bill to know that im just against SOME of the "works" of the Catholic Church. But i am against ALL that is unbiblical. WM: Ryan, I was also many of things about the Catholic church when I was younger. Now as I have learned more, but not nearly enough, I understand more. I have a long way to go, but I am making progress.
You don't seem to believe in the need for any church Ryan which surprises me. My feeling, though oversimplified, makes sense to me. If you were to let everyone interpret the laws of this country on their own as to what was legal or not and what is right or not, there would be chaos. Yet, it's considered correct to let everyone interpret the laws of God without knowing history, translations of languages, intent of words etc. If I were to say to you today: Boy aren't you gay" you might hit me. If I said that 80 years ago, you would know that I am stating that you are happy. That is a difference of 1 word in English, 80 years ago. Now, let's go back 2000 years and tranlste the word of God from multiple languages where there could be three words for love. See the need yet? Nah, I didn't think you would. Even if you did or considered it for a second, you would never admit that your point of view may not be correct. Not meaning to be attacking, but you need to step back and reflect some. There are brilliant theologians who can't seem to agree on this, so I know that I won't get it either. I amnot saying I understand it all...far from it. However, I can be honest enough to know that people far smarter than me are also confused.
Again, I am done and will let you have the last word so that you can get some sleep. Of course that you don't take any parting shots. :-)
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