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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 10:53:35 GMT -5
RT: Confession in a dark box, to a man that dont need to know your business? WM: Mt 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. This is the power of Reconcilliation. Seems easy enough to me.
This scripture has nothing to do with confession in a a box. The bible does say this James 5:16. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
This does not absolve sin. It is to help each other grow in christ.
Do i think confession in a box is sin? No but i dont think its required. And i dont think it is scriptural .We should confess our faults one to another and do so confidentially. but understand if you for somereason dont trust that priest you christian brethren are priests according to the bible.
RT: Did you know Martin Luther had no intention of breaking away from the catholic church? WM: Yes he did. Did you know that he was obsessive convulsive? How about that he felt that he was so sinful that he felt that no matter what he did he could not stop feeling guilty and that is the reason HE ALTERED THE BIBLE and added the word alone after your favorite quote.
You cal that altering the bible? He clarified the point that was being made. This is accurate translation. The rest of the entire bible genesis to revalation backs it up. If it was contradictry that would be different.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Feb 3, 2005 11:08:10 GMT -5
AMEN BROTHER BILL....UM.... I mean Bill!!!!!!!!
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Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 3, 2005 11:38:54 GMT -5
Ryan, Are you kidding? Damn straight that is altering the bible! Well as long as you don't think it is scriptural, I guess it's not ;-)
Let me guess, if it's not in the bible, it's not a teaching right?
Bill
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 14:24:05 GMT -5
I believe that if a man or church teaches something that would conflict with the scriptures in needs to be thrown out.
Luthers "alone" doesnt conflict with the scripture.
Whats the difference between Luther writing "alone" and the Catholic Church declaring infalibility when it comes to the governing of the church?
Except of course for the fact that Luthers only clarified what the scriptures already taught. and the Catholic Church wants to add or take away teachings.
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Post by simon on Feb 3, 2005 15:32:31 GMT -5
There is so much to respond to so I will just have to generalize here, brevity is not my strong suit, so please do not take offense if I make a short direct question or comment out of something you posted.
If god does not want us to be subjugated to him then why all of the rules, why the baptism ritual, why the kneeling, why the fire, brimstone and threats of damnation, not for sinning but for just not loving and accepting him, is there some kind of rule that god has to play by where he only gets to keep the souls that love and accept him and all the rest go to hell? Who could make such a rule over god, is he not all powerful all knowing, why does he need the outward signs of capitulation, there are many people that truly do have a relationship with god deep inside of them I have no doubt about this but the vast majority of the people that claim they believe in god have no where near such a connection, until they fall on hard times or it is a holiday.
Do these people think they are fooling god? If he is what he is alleged to be that is not possible so all of the man made actions to show you love god are a complete waste of time. Could god not just decide to accept all good people regardless of whether they worshiped him or not, again is he not a just god? Or is his need for our love greater than justice?
Only a limited and earthly bounded creature like man could dream up these outward signs to show your love and acceptance of god no true omnipotent ruler would need such things.
If I was to believe there is a god, I would not expect him to kill babies to prevent them from causing evil down the road though he knows they will, though I might expect him to guide someone into this child’s life in order to possibly change the outcome, again he is god after all) anymore than I believe that god is killing children because “they are too good for this earth” that phrase I actually heard a Catholic Priest say during the funeral service of an infant, my respect for the family and the service is the only thing that kept me from knocking that man on his ass. (The child was neither good nor bad in relationship to any earthly terms).
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 15:50:54 GMT -5
Simon i like your views. you are absolutly correct. im kinda picking up from your posts that deep in your heart you know there is a God but you are hesitant to believe that he is the God of the "religious" if you know what i mean. I feel like you dont have too much a problem with God but with religious people, and their veiws on God. And i totaly agree with that if im correct.
Let me address what you said here: "If god does not want us to be subjugated to him then why all of the rules, why the baptism ritual, why the kneeling, why the fire, brimstone and threats of damnation, not for sinning but for just not loving and accepting him, is there some kind of rule that god has to play by where he only gets to keep the souls that love and accept him and all the rest go to hell?"
If you will allow me to give a response. This is a misconception. Though i know thats what it looks like. God is not forcing people to love him or burn in hell. God created man and man sinned. Man turned their back on God. Becuase God is HOLY he has to be seperate from sin. All the rules are for us to realize we are not holy. There is nothing we can do to be holy. As you notice people try to be holy by being good people. by certain religous rituals. And that is all garbage. I dont love God so i can go to heaven I love God because he is so gracious and merciful that he saved me from hell. And the miserable life i was living even recently went i stepped away from God for awhile he was still so gracious and merciful to bring me back to him, before i ruined my life completley. That is why i do or try to do the good things a good person is supposed to do not for merit but becuase i love God. And i am able to love him becuase he first loved me.
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Post by simon on Feb 3, 2005 17:22:14 GMT -5
Not quite Ryan I would love to believe or know there was a just, all powerful god, that cared for us and righted wrongs, I think that concept is phenomenal, something akin to the effect that I could feed my children a pill that would make them invulnerable to harm or unhappiness. But no I really do not believe in god.
It is very easy to unravel any religion if you look at there writings, their practices, their rituals, their actions etc, so instead for my arguments I am taking the assumptive position that there is a god for the sake of the argument, it really makes it easier to question the logic and common sense behind the thought process.
I do not believe in ghosts because of the illogical manner in which the sightings happen, partial quick views under x circumstances half intelligible repetitive comments that people construe as words etc. I do not believe in god because it makes no sense to me that an all powerful ruler is seemingly bound by rules and reasons or requires physical acts from mere humans, most of what I hear as to why these limitations exist sound like rationalized answers some earlier humans devised to stop people like me from asking these questions.
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Post by simon on Feb 3, 2005 17:44:49 GMT -5
Ryan how did god save you from hell?
Who sinned? Me? My infant daughter? All mankind is guilty of sin simply because we are man and Adam and Eve sinned? That is pretty unjust and illogical.
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Post by simon on Feb 3, 2005 18:01:05 GMT -5
The one assumption that all of the supporters of any religion makes is that any of the scriptures, writing, teachings, books, bibles, or beliefs are anything more than , fiction or embellished stories of actual earthly events. So though we could not have all the laws of man simply interpreted by individuals, (though to some extent they are interpretive or we would not have a use for lawyers) they are laws that we created we know where they came from and they hold some semblance of application to the world we live in, plus they can be changed within the will of the people, the same cannot be said for religious text. The Chrisna religion has virtually the same story of Jesus except he is DeJesus Chrisna or (Krishna) it happened in the same area only a thousand some years earlier and they too claim they have documents to prove it. This is no different than what the Christian religion claims so why are they wrong and the Christians right? The Christians have no more evidence than they do…Did you guys know that the immaculate conception was not declared by the church until centuries after the death of Christ yet it is considered fact now. Have any of you studied Mythology, Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic etc, prior to the efforts to spread Christianity, these beliefs were their religion, these beliefs were vastly documented, as fact, yet they are all dismissed as merely myths now, why because the do not make sense, no religion does in my eyes. If you remove all the different interpretations and human applications of Christian religious text what do you have left? (Pharaphrasing from what I have read on here) A god that formed everything, including us, mankind became wicked, god gave us his son Jesus where by his crucifixion not only absolved us but made us indebted to god so now we must love and accept him unconditionally or we cannot get into heaven when we die, god cannot or will not waiver from these rules regardless and though he is here to watch over us he does not interfere with our day to day lives. Why would god answer a prayer to save an elderly person that is very ill but he would not stop a killer from murdering an innocent child? Is this simply a proper chain of request problem?
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 18:05:29 GMT -5
Becuase Adam sinned and we al come from him we all suffer the concequences of Sin. Such as death, having to work for a living, woman having severe pain in child labor...etc.
We were in the loins of adam so to speak when he sinned. If adam wouldve had children before they sinned it might all be different.
Because of that Sin i was on my way to hell. And Jesus Christ in grace and love came to me to offer me salvation and i accepted.
God does send people in the lives of those children so that the outcome would be different but the people he sends cant force those people to give their lives to Christ only to offer salvation through Christ.
Recently i was involed in something id rather not talk about in a public forum. Some know what im talking about. But my life was full of fear and becuase of my sin i felt alone. I was working at a Christian Television station to. God was there but i was seperated from him. I felt so alone and so afraid i wanted to die i didnt want to face the world with my sin. As someone who boldy proclaims the gospel and then gets involved in such a situation. As other ministers of the gospel have fallen in to. But thats the power of the grace of Christ, there is restoration. Eventually i got to a point where i gave up trying to fight with my sin realizing i couldnt do it. So i surrendered it to him and it hurt bad. And i suffered persecution for it, my sin was exposed. but God loves me that much to extend grace to me no matter how digusting my sin is. Jesus bore it on the cross. through that i learned to put my faith soley in the cross of Christ. Nothing else has the power. Baptism dont wash it away payers dont absolve it confession to a brother doesnt absolve it but the confession to my brothers (in christ) helped strengthen me to lay my sin at the cross and Christ bore it. And has forgiven me and restored me after a year and a half of persecution and torment as a reprecussion of my sin. The persecuusion and torment does not restore me Christ restored me. The reprecussion and tormen is a natural result of sin. The strenght of God helped me through it.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 18:15:21 GMT -5
Your a lil off on two things in your conclusion.
One: We are not indebted to God we feel we are thus the creation of "religion" were we try to repay God for what hes done but we cant. Our works are not good enough. And salvation is a gift. Not a contract "i do this you do this".
Two: God does intervene constantly even in your life. You may not understand or accept it. He will not force you against your will, but he does intervene.
The bible says that noone can call Jesus Lord except by power of the Holy Spirit. So then for me to come to you and say "Simon, God is real and God loves you" is according to the bible God saying" Simon, I am real and I Love you"
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Post by simon on Feb 3, 2005 19:07:18 GMT -5
So I have those two blame for having to work and I cannot wait to tell my wife that just had a baby who she has to thank for the pain, let’s say if I have not converted her yet this will do the trick. JK
This is almost chicken and egg, “we do not need religion because salvation is a gift, yet it is the written word of religion that tells us this” If nothing man can do will ever make him proper in gods eyes then why do anything? Why go to church, why preach his word, why live without sin for regardless we are of Adam and therefore nothing we will ever do will change that but god will give us the gift of salvation regardless? Ryan you sinned and yet you were saved, why, you are also of Adam so you are also a sinner, so whether or not you reached out to god admitted your sin took your punishment it would not have mattered because you would have been gifted salvation anyway.
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Post by Tony Carpenter on Feb 3, 2005 21:01:15 GMT -5
Simon, have you seen the movie Dogma.
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Post by Steven Lareau on Feb 3, 2005 21:04:46 GMT -5
nevermind Dogma, watch South Park...
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Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 3, 2005 23:10:47 GMT -5
No we must accept the lord as our savior and he then gives us freedom over sin. Before we accept christ we are bound by sin when we accept him he breaks us free. And we are no longer bound by it, like i was bound to my sin when i stepped away from God but when i asked him to break the chains he broke them and i have been free. If i go back to my sin and i have the free will to do that then i step away from God again. Sin seperates us from God. When we are with God we do good works as a result of that not for merit. The "good" things i do are not for God nor mans merit but becuase i love the lord and becuase i am allowing the lord to work through me to give glory to the lord for the work he has done in my life.
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