|
Post by Rick Laton on Jul 31, 2010 10:50:35 GMT -5
Engin,
You posted stuff from the Quran, the Old Testament of my Holy Bible, and you even posted from the New Testament of my Holy Bible. At what point do you stop believing the New Testament and start believing something differently?
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 11:56:44 GMT -5
Engin, You posted stuff from the Quran, the Old Testament of my Holy Bible, and you even posted from the New Testament of my Holy Bible. At what point do you stop believing the New Testament and start believing something differently? the point that was touched at the Nicean Council (325) where the original Hebrew Gospels were burnt by Emperor Constantine.as we all know that Jesus' teachings were in Hebrew.that was the time that Roman Empire prohibited to believe in Jesus as a holy messenger and formulated the trinity by using the Mithra's story. " The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." -- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary The New Encyclopedia Britannica: " Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament." Historian Arthur Weigall: " Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord." -- The Paganism in Our Christianity . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." -- Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126. (1976) The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: " The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299. The Encyclopedia Americana: " Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicaea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." -- (1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L. The Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, " The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches . . . This Greek philosopher's [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." -- (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467. " The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature: which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The Trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J. p. 899 Regarding the Nicene Council and those that followed, Hans Kung in Christianity says, " The councilor decisions plunged Christianity into undreamed-of theological confusions with constant entanglements in church politics. They produced splits and sparked off a persecution of heretics unique in the history of religion. This is what Christianity became as it changed its nature from a persecuted minority to a majority persecuting others." " Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -- Robert A. Heinlein " The word itself does not occur in the Bible...The explicit formula was thus formulated in the post-biblical period, although the early stages of its development can be seen in the NT. Attempts to trace the origin still earlier (to the Old Testament literature) cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship, and these attempts must be understood as retrospective interpretations of this earlier corpus of Scripture in the light of later theological developments." The Harper Collins Study Bible Dictionary " The doctrine is not taught explicitly in the New Testament, where the word God almost invariably refers to the Father" -- MS Encarta 99 " No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity . . . Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs . . . The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck." -- Thomas Jefferson: Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822 " In brief, the ante-Nicene Fathers taught the real distinction and divinity of the three persons . . . but in their attempts at a philosophical interpretation of the Dogma, the ante-Nicene Fathers used certain expressions which would favor sudordinationism. In the late 17th century, the Socinians cited these expressions that the ante-Nicene tradition agreed rather with Arius than with Athanasius . . . Catholic theologians commonly defend the orthodoxy of these early Fathers, while admitting that certain of their expressions were inaccurate and eventually dangerous." -- Colliers Encyclopedia we believe that Jesus was a holy messenger of GOD and was not crucified on the cross.i can discuss about why we believe that he was not crucified if you will not be offended.
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 31, 2010 12:32:11 GMT -5
You make a very valid point on the trinity. And I really can't argue against it.
Some Christians believe in the trinity.
Some do not.
Given the reasons of both arguments I do not believe that it makes a difference in salvation.
As long as the Christians faith is placed in the finished work of Christ.
The only few people I have spoke with who don't believe in the trinity make a big fuss about how one is baptized whether it's "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost" or "in the name of Jesus"
In the end there is no difference in salvation. Not in my book anyway.
My pastor eliminates that problem baptises people "in the name of the father, son, holy spirit and in the name if Jesus". Lol
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 14:11:22 GMT -5
You make a very valid point on the trinity. And I really can't argue against it. Some Christians believe in the trinity. Some do not. Given the reasons of both arguments I do not believe that it makes a difference in salvation. As long as the Christians faith is placed in the finished work of Christ. The only few people I have spoke with who don't believe in the trinity make a big fuss about how one is baptized whether it's "in the name of the father, son and holy ghost" or "in the name of Jesus" In the end there is no difference in salvation. Not in my book anyway. My pastor eliminates that problem baptises people "in the name of the father, son, holy spirit and in the name if Jesus". Lol i believe that it makes a HUGE difference in salvation.here satan orders Jesus to worship him but Jesus answers; Mathew 4:8-10 "Again the devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him: All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me. Then Jesus said to him: Go away Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone, you must render sacred service." in my belief,people who worships other than GOD almighty will be very disappointed on the judgement day; "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." will of my father? lawlesness (Paul?)? does it include; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.Isaiah 46:9 "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)" Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying ..Hebrew 5:7 "During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." Acts 3:22 "In fact, Moses said: Jehovah will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to you."
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 14:49:07 GMT -5
other ways for salvation?
"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"
18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.John 6:47
And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.” John 12:50
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 31, 2010 15:11:05 GMT -5
18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure Alright one at a time...... You are having a misunderstanding of this scripture. I assume your trying to show Christ denying that he is God or good right? No where in this passage is he doing this. He asked him why do you call me good. It was to give the ruler the opportunity to acknowledge him as God. He then gave him a list of dos and don'ts The man said to Jesus I have kept them since I was a boy. Which is likely not true. But Jesus made the point that all the dos and don'ts or (religious acts) don't do a thing for you if you haven't fully surrendered your life to him.
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 15:59:07 GMT -5
Alright one at a time...... You are having a misunderstanding of this scripture. I assume your trying to show Christ denying that he is God or good right? it was not my intention to post these verses. No where in this passage is he doing this. He asked him why do you call me good. It was to give the ruler the opportunity to acknowledge him as God. Jesus clearly says that he is not good and GOD alone is good.if the person would have thought that Jesus is god then he would not have called him "MASTER".too much of imagination to justify something that does not exist is not a healthy thing.it also was the problem of the people who invented trinity. Jesus is not god and here is another proof; " No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. he says "the son" whom you called "god the son" does not know the hour of the judgement but GOD whom you call "father" alone knows it. He then gave him a list of dos and don'ts The man said to Jesus I have kept them since I was a boy. Which is likely not true. But Jesus made the point that all the dos and don'ts or (religious acts) don't do a thing for you if you haven't fully surrendered your life to him. my point was that Jesus said he who obeys GOD has chance to go to heaven.if the guy had enough of faith to sell everything he has to help poor people and followed living Jesus as the other disciples did,then Jesus said he could have entered heaven. why do you need to ask forgiveness if you are forgiven already by the crucification? btw where do Jews,who deny Jesus, go according to Christian faith?
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 16:06:25 GMT -5
also any thoughts on Enoch and Elijah who were taken to heaven?
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 16:38:14 GMT -5
others who went to heaven without needing crucification?
"In Your presence is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore" (Ps. 16:11).
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" (Ps. 23:6).
so it is possible to receive forgiveness (= heaven?) without crucification? see these parts are also same as what i believe;
If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. (NLT, Matthew 6:14-15)
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 31, 2010 16:44:15 GMT -5
others who went to heaven without needing crucification? " In Your presence is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore" (Ps. 16:11). " Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" (Ps. 23:6). so it is possible to receive forgiveness (= heaven?) without crucification? see these parts are also same as what i believe; If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. (NLT, Matthew 6:14-15) “ If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) " Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). none of that is separate or without the crucifixion
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 16:47:51 GMT -5
" Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever" (Ps. 23:6). hmmm here is clearly written that David says he will be heaven by the mercy (that he had during his life) of GOD. righteous goes to heaven? And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46 why do i not see anything about the crucification in these verses?
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 31, 2010 16:49:39 GMT -5
Do you not apologize to your wife mother or father or child if you truly offend them?
They are still your mother father wife or child.
But to remain in good graces you must live with an attitude of repentance.
If I offend my wife and she can see that I am repentant. She will forgive me.
But if I offend her and am not repentant she may leave me.
Same with Christ, as Christians we repent when we offend God.
Not just to obtain mercy, but we are truly sorrowful for the offense.
Because we love our father in heaven.
For forgiveness and mercy is found at the cross. Where Christ paid the penalty for our sins.
|
|
|
Post by enginterzi on Jul 31, 2010 17:07:42 GMT -5
Do you not apologize to your wife mother or father or child if you truly offend them? They are still your mother father wife or child. But to remain in good graces you must live with an attitude of repentance. If I offend my wife and she can see that I am repentant. She will forgive me. But if I offend her and am not repentant she may leave me. Same with Christ, as Christians we repent when we offend God. Not just to obtain mercy, but we are truly sorrowful for the offense. Because we love our father in heaven. For forgiveness and mercy is found at the cross. Where Christ paid the penalty for our sins. mercy is found on the cross yet Jesus was begging to GOD to save him from it? if mercy is found on the cross and penalty is paid for the sins then why do you still ask for forgiveness? it is paid already,you are forgiven! you went to a restaurant and ate,someone else paid the bill for you.so you just go home as there is nothing else to pay.if you offend your wife and you are not rependant then she may leave you? so if you are not rependant then the cross may not save you? mercy has always been with GOD; Psalms 111:4 says, " the Lord is full of pity and mercy." Later in Psalms there is another Bible verse that says, " His mercy endureth forever." Psalms 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Psalms 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy1 Chronicles 16:34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalms 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.Psalms 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.Daniel 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;Psalms 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; forgiveness without crucification? Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 31, 2010 20:13:59 GMT -5
Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father."
One mighty God can be 3 persons if he wants to. He is still one almighty God manifesting Himself in 3 persons. If He wanted to be 7 persons, could he not? This is very, very simple. For His plan of salvation he chose to be 3 persons.
When Jesus was in the Garden before His Crucifixion, He asked the Father for the cup to pass Him by, but "not my will, but yours be done." Jesus humbled Himself to take the flesh for our salvation. Being in the flesh, he had the psychological torment in the garden knowing what he was about to face. That was simply part of being in the flesh. His divine spirit knew He had to do the will of the Father(first person of the Trinity, not in the flesh) which obviously was his own divine will fighting the flesh he had taken.
|
|
|
Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 0:19:51 GMT -5
Davids faith was in Gods promises.
Such as the promise of the coming messiah.
In essence davids faith was in what christ did at the cross. Even though it hadn't happened yet.
God made a promise to eve and to Abraham and many others that through their decendants the savior would come.
They placed their faith in gods plan for salvation.
In the cross
|
|