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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 0:25:44 GMT -5
Elijah and Enoch have never died.
Thier faith was/is in gods salvation plan (the cross/the blood of Christ)
It is appointed unto all men to die once.
They will be back. According to revalation and will preach the cross to the Jews. They will perform miracles and then they will be killed likely on live international television. And then resurrected.
Revelations
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Post by John Byerley on Aug 1, 2010 0:42:07 GMT -5
Just posting for fun, not for arguments sake or anything.
Someone tried to explain the Trinity to me like this, thought it was cool.
Say you have a piece of paper with two shapes on it - two squares.
For the sake of illustration imagine those shapes were alive and could see each other. What could each of them see of each other? Just one side at a time - because of course they are limited in sight, mobility and are only 2 dimensional.
Now if you could take your finger and place the end of it on the paper between the shapes, what could the shapes see of yourself? Only your fingertip.
Thats all the shapes are able to see, understand, comprehend, or analyze.
Jesus - was God's "fingertip."
A way for us as humans to experience at least a part of God, here on Earth.
The Bible says His ways are above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts.
Whatever dimension God exists in - is more than likely well beyond our greatest comprehension or Earthly thought.
BUT the bible does say we were made in his image - thus - the Holy Spirit. We are ALL connected by our spiritual sides. We can be connected to good, evil, or each other through this. We can carry positive energy, negative energy, etc. God's Holy Spirit is HIS spiritual "body."
Yet another way for Him to communicate on a level of our understanding.
TO ME - the TRINITY discussion is kind of a moot subject. God is what He is - to us that is, but He is more than likely WAY beyond the few things that we comprehend, and give names to, like the Trinity.
Jesus had an Earthly body, that was fully consumed by God's Holy Spirit. Trying to understand this is VERY difficult. But interesting.
We all exist at some dimensional level - and all dimensions are curved into the next. Nature, animals, humans, angels/demons, and God.
Each has an innate interest and curiosity of the higher dimension, but cannot fully comprehend, be, or understand what is on a higher dimensional scale of thought.
This line of thought can kind of explain the battle for the human soul between good and evil forces.
If someone told you that he was going to train a little ant - through love, mercy, compassion, sacrifice - and that one day that ant would be over you - be greater than you, you would laugh in their face.
God told Satan that we would one day have dominion over him. The "devil" - whatever he is - is far superior to us dimensionally. We can't understand him, but he very much understands us. For God to tell him this would be a big insult, and here we are.
God gave us dominion over an entire dimension - the animal kingdom. Animals, I believe at the beginning, walked along side man. Domesticated animals LOVE us, they can be trained, communicated with, and can communicate back. They're existence is curved into our own.
We are curved into Him, and the innate question in all of us - what is out there, what is HE like, what are the angels like, what is outside our solar system - all of those questions are not just thoughts, they are embedded into who we are, what we are, on a scientifically dimensional level.
We will only be able to rationally understand SOME of God's characteristics - only those things that we can see or feel, but we are VERY limited, and VERY inferior to higher dimensions.
Cool stuff.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 2:54:48 GMT -5
Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." One mighty God can be 3 persons if he wants to. He is still one almighty God manifesting Himself in 3 persons. If He wanted to be 7 persons, could he not? This is very, very simple. For His plan of salvation he chose to be 3 persons. When Jesus was in the Garden before His Crucifixion, He asked the Father for the cup to pass Him by, but "not my will, but yours be done." Jesus humbled Himself to take the flesh for our salvation. Being in the flesh, he had the psychological torment in the garden knowing what he was about to face. That was simply part of being in the flesh. His divine spirit knew He had to do the will of the Father(first person of the Trinity, not in the flesh) which obviously was his own divine will fighting the flesh he had taken. Bob, i do not find these explanations objective because there are tens of proofs that show Jesus is a person who is under the commandment of GOD and he did not know so many things until he was taught by GOD. "if you see me you see the father" is a symbolic way to say that "i am represanting GOD".as i have showed even Catholic sources that there was no trinity until the 4. century.also those words were not written in the language of the teachings of Jesus.the books that you read today was the desicion of the Nicean Creed.for example,what does this mean; 24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. 25But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. who are they? for sure some people who were not with Jesus . you said "god choosed to be 3 person" so you mean GOD was 1 person but then choosed to become 3? because before "he choosed" there has to be a time,right? HE never said such thing anywhere in the Bible and it is clear that Jesus was sent by GOD and he said; " Father who gave me a commandment,what i should say and what i should speak" we clearly understand that "heavenly" Jesus was ordered by GOD before he came to earth. trinity was a forced idea by the Athanasian to make Jesus and holy spirit as gods.it was impossible since there are hundreds of proves in Bible that GOD is ONE and ONLY and ALONE.so they had to fit 3 in 1.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 3:04:36 GMT -5
Davids faith was in Gods promises. Such as the promise of the coming messiah. In essence davids faith was in what christ did at the cross. Even though it hadn't happened yet. God made a promise to eve and to Abraham and many others that through their decendants the savior would come. They placed their faith in gods plan for salvation. In the cross yes true,GOD sent his servant; “I tell you solemnly, no servant is greater than His master, no messenger greater than the one who sent Him.” For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Isaiah 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 1, 2010 4:34:26 GMT -5
Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the father." One mighty God can be 3 persons if he wants to. He is still one almighty God manifesting Himself in 3 persons. If He wanted to be 7 persons, could he not? This is very, very simple. For His plan of salvation he chose to be 3 persons. When Jesus was in the Garden before His Crucifixion, He asked the Father for the cup to pass Him by, but "not my will, but yours be done." Jesus humbled Himself to take the flesh for our salvation. Being in the flesh, he had the psychological torment in the garden knowing what he was about to face. That was simply part of being in the flesh. His divine spirit knew He had to do the will of the Father(first person of the Trinity, not in the flesh) which obviously was his own divine will fighting the flesh he had taken. Bob, i do not find these explanations objective because there are tens of proofs that show Jesus is a person who is under the commandment of GOD and he did not know so many things until he was taught by GOD. "if you see me you see the father" is a symbolic way to say that "i am represanting GOD".as i have showed even Catholic sources that there was no trinity until the 4. century.also those words were not written in the language of the teachings of Jesus.the books that you read today was the desicion of the Nicean Creed.for example,what does this mean; 24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. 25But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. who are they? for sure some people who were not with Jesus . you said "god choosed to be 3 person" so you mean GOD was 1 person but then choosed to become 3? because before "he choosed" there has to be a time,right? HE never said such thing anywhere in the Bible and it is clear that Jesus was sent by GOD and he said; " Father who gave me a commandment,what i should say and what i should speak" we clearly understand that "heavenly" Jesus was ordered by GOD before he came to earth. trinity was a forced idea by the Athanasian to make Jesus and holy spirit as gods.it was impossible since there are hundreds of proves in Bible that GOD is ONE and ONLY and ALONE.so they had to fit 3 in 1. If you had to summarize the entire Old Testament and New Testament in 3 words: Jesus the Christ! Everything points to Jesus. I do read every word of your posts because they are interesting to me. They also give reason to why you believe what you do. That being said, I don't see what you see in your belief that Jesus isn't God. As Jesus shares His divinity with us, we become the "body of Christ." We don't become gods. We become more spiritual and less of base, animal, physical humans. It's another difficult concept because of our weak human natures. How can God share his divinity with us? He loves us and gives us a special dignity above animals. He calls us to a higher order and gives us the spiritual strength to follow Him. Peace, and have a great and holy Sunday!
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 5:53:49 GMT -5
ABOUT THE CRUCIFICATION
SHORT VERSION;
1-Jesus must have been saved from any kind of injury according to Psalms but he was harmed according to the writers of the new testament.
Luke 4:10-12
10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
2-it is written that the one (Judas) who plans to harm Jesus,will be harmed.
Psalms 91-8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
confirmed by The Apocalypse of Peter
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me." confirmed by Quran
they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, GOD raised him up Unto Himself
confirmed by gospel of Barnabas;
....Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus....
...Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus...
3-there is no source in Psalms about Jesus being crucified and resurrect again.
4-these things were known even at the time of Paul;
Galatians: Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
5- they did not know about what happenned to Judas;
matthew 27-5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. .
acts 1-18 With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field;
matthew 27-5 Then he went away and hanged himself
acts 1-18 there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out
6-there are inconsistants in the cross verses;
Luke 23-43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
(Jesus did not go to heaven on verily day)
Luke 23: 39-41 "One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: 'Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!' But the other criminal rebuked him. 'Don't you fear God,' he said, 'since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.'"
Matthew 27-44 The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.
Mark 15-32 32"Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!" Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.
7- there are so many inconsistants about the resurrection (only one of them below,therest is with the long version);
in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.
Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone);
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 5:54:42 GMT -5
CRUCIFICATION (LONG VERSION); Jesus will not get hurt (not only unbroken bones but also not getting EVEN hurt ) ; Luke 4:10-12 10 For the Scriptures say, ‘ He will order his angels to protect and guard you.11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” again; Matthew 4:5-10 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, 6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’” some more; Psalms 91 1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED? JUDAS?
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
NO HARM AT ALL?
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
ALL YOUR WAYS?
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
JESUS WILL CALL UPON GOD..HE DID PRAY TO NOT TO BE CRUCIFIED..HE WAS ANSWERED? AND SAVED ?
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."
Isaiah 52:13 13Behold, My Servant shall deal wisely and shall prosper; He shall be exalted and extolled and shall stand very high.
Have Isaiah 53:12 clearly said "and he will die for people's sins and resurrect after 3 days", then we would have nothing to argue about
My question is: if Jesus was crucified then How in the world is it possible for the feet to get nailed on the cross without any penetration to the bones by the nails, hence breaking part of the feet's bones?!
"A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all; he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:19-20)"
here is a clear testimony by the only witness of the subject and it says that GOD saved Jesus and put Judas on the shame;
The Apocalypse of Peter
"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."
When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
But I, when I had looked, said "Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place." But he said to me, "I have told you, "Leave the blind alone!" And you, see how they do not know what they are saying. For the son of their glory instead of my servant, they have put to shame."
And I saw someone about to approach us resembling him, even him who was laughing on the tree. And he was filled with a Holy Spirit, and he is the Savior. And there was a great, ineffable light around them, and the multitude of ineffable and invisible angels blessing them. And when I looked at him, the one who gives praise was revealed. And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel, in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law. But he who stands near him is the living Savior, the first in him, whom they seized and released, who stands joyfully looking those who did him violence, while they are divided among themselves. Therefore he laughs at their lack of perception, knowing that they are born blind. So then the one susceptible to suffering shall come, since the body is the substitute. But what they released was my incorporeal body. But I am the intellectual Spirit filled with radiant light. He whom you saw coming to me is our intellectual Pleroma , which unites the perfect light with my Holy Spirit."
my faith also inform me in same exact way;
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of god.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, GOD raised him up Unto Himself; and GOD Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"
gospel of Barnabas confirms this as well;
Gospel of Barnabas;
Having gone forth from the house, Jesus retired into the garden to pray, according as his custom was to pray, bowing his knees an hundred times and prostrating himself upon his face. Judas, accordingly, knowing the place where Jesus was with his disciples, went to the high priest, and said: "If you will give me what was promised, this night will I give into your hand Jesus whom you seek; for he is alone with eleven companions." The high priest answered: "How much do you seek?" Judas said, "Thirty pieces of gold."
Then straightway the high priest counted to him the money, and sent a Pharisee to the governor to fetch soldiers, and to Herod, and they gave a legion of them, because they feared the people; wherefore they took their arms, and with torches and lanterns upon staves went out of Jerusalem.
When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South.
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus.
and this was a known thing then as Paul who has never seen Jesus,also mentions;
Galatians
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
PSALMS 141
8 But mine eyes are unto thee, O GOD the Lord: in thee is my trust; leave not my soul destitute. 9 Keep me from the snares which they have laid for me, and the gins of the workers of iniquity. 10 Let the wicked fall into their own nets, whilst that I withal escape.
AND JUDAS? WHAT HAPPENNED TO HIM?
MATTHEW 27
1Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people came to the decision to put Jesus to death. 2They bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate, the governor. 3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4"I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."
5So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
ABOVE THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT JUDAS DID NOT USE THE MONEY (DID NOT PURCHASE THE FIELD OF THE BLOOD WITH THIS MONEY) AND HE HUNGED HIMSELF.
ACTS 1
15In those days Peter stood up among the believers[c] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
ABOVE IT IS WRITTEN THAT JUDAS USED THE MONEY TO BUY A FIELD AND THERE HE FELL HEADLONG,AND HE DIED.
it is clear that Judas was disappeared and they had to write a story about his death.but this caused different stories about the death of one person.
RESURRECTION ?
Luke 24-46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
Where in the Old Testament do you have that?! Show me one Old Testament verse that prophesized about Jesus' third day resurrection?
WOMEN AT THE TOMB;
Matthew 28:1 states two women (Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary) came to the tomb;
Mark 16:1 states it was three women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome);
Luke 24:10 agrees it was three women but gives a different list of three than Mark (Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James);
John 20:1 states it was only Mary Magdalene.
TIME OF VISIT
Mark 16:2 states "the sun had risen" at the time of this visit,
while
John 20:1 states "it was still dark."
ANGEL AT THE TOMB;
Matthew 28:2 says "an angel" "came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it";
Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone);
Luke 24:4 says they saw "two men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing";
in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.
To whom did Jesus (peace be upon him) appear first:
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary as Matthew 28:9 claims?
Mary Magdalene only as Mark 16:9 claims?
Cephas (Peter) and then the other disciples, as 1 Corinthians 15:5 claims?
Matthew 28:9 claims that Jesus (peace be upon him) appeared before the women even had reported to the disciples what the found (or didnt) at the tomb.
Also in Mark 16:9 the appearance to Mary Magdalene was before Mary made any report to the disciples.
However, John and Luke report no appearance before the women reported an empty tomb to the disciples.
In appearing to the disciples, to whom did Jesus (peace be upon him) first appear:
All eleven together (Matthew 28:17-18)?
Two of them on the road, then to all eleven together (Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31)?
To ten of the eleven (minus Thomas) together (John 20:19-24)?
To Peter, then the others (1 Corinthians 15:5)?
The story recounted in John 20:25-29 is all premised on an appearance of Jesus (peace be upon him) before the disciples at which Thomas was not present! Matthew 28:17-18, Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31 all disagree with John about any such meeting taking place in the absence of Thomas!
WHERE THEY MET JESUS?
In Acts and the Gospel of Luke, the disciples were commanded to stay in Jerusalem and, in fact, met Jesus (peace be upon him) there (see Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:33, 47, 49).
In Matthew 28:10 and Mark 16:6-7, the disciples are commanded to go to Galilee,
and in Matthew 28:16-18, we are told they see Jesus (peace be upon him) there, not in or near Jerusalem!
ASCENSION?
Mark says that after appearing before the eleven disciples together in Gallilee, Jesus (peace be upon him) ascended to Heaven (Mark 16: 14, 19).
Luke says Jesus (peace be upon him) ascended to Heaven at Bethany after walking with the disciples some time (Luke 24:50-51).
John says Jesus (peace be upon him) appeared to the disciples at three times and that some of these appearances were near the Sea of Gallilee (Lake Tiberias) (John 21:1, 14).
According to Acts the disciples were at Mt. Olivet, a days journey from Jerusalem, when the ascension occurred (Acts 1:9-12).
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 6:28:59 GMT -5
I don't feel the need to address every issue. You bring up.
Your perspective of scripture makes sense of why you believe what you believe.
But I feel if I can show you or share with you my perspective on one issue then maybe you might see that what I believe makes sense.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 6:39:24 GMT -5
Having said that here's one issue where you have a misunderstanding of the scripture.
Jesus told the thief on the cross this day you will be in paradise with me.
Your argument for inconsistency was that Jesus didn't go to heaven that day.
But the proper prospective is to understand what/where paradise was.
Paradise was in hell, and Jesus DID go to hell that day. To set the captive free from "paradise"
There are different sections of hell. Paradise is a section where believers were sent to before the crucifixion. It was a comforted side where they were not tortured and tormented.
But because the blood offering had not yet been applied to the mercy seat they could not enter heaven.
The thief had to go to paradise that day. And Jesus went to paradise.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 6:44:07 GMT -5
And to clarify one thing. Paradise is not/was not purgatory.
The faith of those people were placed on gods salvation plan (the cross)
They were not being purged thier. They were not being purified thier. The simply had to wait so that Christ could go and "prepare a place for us"
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Post by Karen Bean on Aug 1, 2010 9:22:41 GMT -5
Oh my goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick asked ENGIN questions about the Muslim religion. Why can he not answer without huge debates? The Muslim religion is THE MUSLIM RELIGION. Why does it have to be debated as to whether it's right, wrong, etc?
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 9:34:30 GMT -5
But because the blood offering had not yet been applied to the mercy seat they could not enter heaven. it seems like Jesus said no need for blood offering for the Heaven; Matthew 5:9-11 " Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." here Jesus shows another condition for heaven; 3. And he said: " I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. being saved? " "But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself." (From the NIV Bible, Ezekiel 3:19-21)" the way to the eternal life; Luke 10 25. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, " what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26. "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27. He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " 28. "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. " Do this and you will live." btw, how come both of the thieves offended Jesus according to some gospel while one of the was a good man according to other?
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2010 9:39:08 GMT -5
Oh my goodness!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rick asked ENGIN questions about the Muslim religion. Why can he not answer without huge debates? The Muslim religion is THE MUSLIM RELIGION. Why does it have to be debated as to whether it's right, wrong, etc? Rick asked a question, Engin answered. Now it's open discussion buttmunch
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 1, 2010 9:39:31 GMT -5
Rick asked ENGIN questions about the Muslim religion. The Muslim religion is THE MUSLIM RELIGION. Why does it have to be debated as to whether it's right, wrong, etc? i was also asked something else by Rick ; Engin, At what point do you stop believing the New Testament and start believing something differently?
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 1, 2010 9:46:38 GMT -5
Having said that here's one issue where you have a misunderstanding of the scripture. Jesus told the thief on the cross this day you will be in paradise with me. Your argument for inconsistency was that Jesus didn't go to heaven that day. But the proper prospective is to understand what/where paradise was. Paradise was in hell, and Jesus DID go to hell that day. To set the captive free from "paradise" There are different sections of hell. Paradise is a section where believers were sent to before the crucifixion. It was a comforted side where they were not tortured and tormented. But because the blood offering had not yet been applied to the mercy seat they could not enter heaven. The thief had to go to paradise that day. And Jesus went to paradise. And paradise is wherever God is, and since we believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, the "good thief was in paradise that day. And to the extent that we live a spiritual life, and we are temples of the Holy Spirit, paradise is in our souls, our beings. You can see and feel that peace and joy in truly holy people.
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