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Post by enginterzi on Aug 5, 2010 3:50:49 GMT -5
Acts 2 (Pentecost) is the beginning of the church. Any group calling themselves Christians that were not in line with Peter were not Christians. They were heretics. James was merely the leader of the Jewish Christians, but subjected himself to the authority of Peter. Christians that were influenced by Paul who was self claimed apostle, called them Heretics. according to the letter of Paul it is opposite way; Galatians 2:11-21 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. Peter, James, and John were with Jesus at the Transfiguration. They KNEW Jesus was God. They also KNEW Jesus had given Peter primacy. you can not show me 1 single word from the letter of James that he mentions "son of god","crucification","salvation through blood" or "resurrection". it is clear that James opposed Paul and even called him "FOOLISH MAN" in his letter as he was following Jesus' true teachings while Paul self claimed that he was a disciple of Jesus. the thing is that James was the leader of the Jews followers of Jesus and they were destroyed during the destruction of Jerusalem and the gentiles who never saw Jesus but learnt by Pauline doctrines became the only ones who continued as Christians. also everything that about the disagreement between the true Apostles and Paul was mentioned by the one sided testimonies of Paul. That doesn't mean that Peter never made human mistakes. i guess Paul was the only one never made earthly mistakes just because we only have his testimonies of the incidents that he mentions.even though he THINKS that he has holy spirit; Corinthians 7:40 (New International Version) 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 5, 2010 5:09:31 GMT -5
since i wnt be talking to god anytime soon dnt really care. But funny u cant answer a logical question, i guess thats the religous way when confronted with the truth deflect and distract from the subject. Anyways like i said between the three of you you cnt agree on the truth, just goes to blow holes in the whole religion thing This statement proves that you are not a very logical thinking person and wouldn't be able to comprehend a more logical answer. That's why I answered the way I did. You don't care anyway. So I ask, why bother. I can share a deep thought with someone seeking truth but not someone set in thier ways who thinks they have "arrived" somewhere.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 5, 2010 7:10:27 GMT -5
James was merely the leader of the Jewish Christians, but subjected himself to the authority of Peter. The late first century writer Clement describes James ascendancy this way (Titus Flavius Clemens (c.150 - c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria, was a Christian theologian and the head of the noted Catechetical School of Alexandria. Clement is best remembered as the teacher of Origen. He united Greek philosophical traditions with Christian doctrine and valued gnosis that with communion for all people could be held by common Christians specially chosen by God.) "Peter, James, and John, after the ascension of the Savior, did not claim pre-eminence because the Savior had specially honoured them, but chose James the Righteous as Bishop of Jerusalem." Acts 15:19-20 [James speaking] "Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood." Eusebius (c260-c340), bishop of Caesarea, was also known as the Father of Church History; History of the Church 2:1:2 Then James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue, is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord... Quoting Hegesippus (c110-180) " James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James." History of the Church 7:19 The chair of James, who first received the episcopate of the church at Jerusalem from the Saviour himself and the apostles, and who, as the divine records show, was called a brother of Christ, has been preserved until now... History of the Church 2:1:3-4 (2:1:3) But Clement [c160-215] in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes thus: "For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Saviour, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem." is it not interesting that Jesus choosed James to lead the Apostles but Paul called him hypocrite? 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. History of the Church 4:22:4-5 The same author [i.e. Hegesippus] also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time, in the following words: "And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord. Therefore, they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses." in the statement above i understand that it is meant that till James died all was correct with the early Christians but it became corrupted after his death and so they mean that Catholics became the ones who continued to follow the true Jesus,even though their teachings were based on Paul's doctrine and Paul was rejected by James.as we see that the early Church was criticised by the Catholic Christians (that were influenced by the teachings of Paul) in these words; " they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses" and the envy is clear in these words; " All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord" for sure Paul was a very confussed man; Corinthians ; "For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." Corinthians 2; "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 1 Corinthians 7:40 40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
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Post by Ty Kissner on Aug 5, 2010 8:10:39 GMT -5
to bob why do i exist? Quites simple my mother and father had to much wine december 31st 1982 and whent home to kick off the new year with a bang so to speak. Also i do love, sacrifice and care for others, difference is i do it cuase my dad raised me to be a proper man. A man that works hard, makes sacrifices for the greater good of his family and friends. Theses traits are part of human nature, not gods design. Like i stated the concept of religion is a good thing, its the way people manipulate, distort and abuse power that i have issues with.
To ryan im more logical than u give me credit for. In your little rant about asking the angel, i get what ur saying when he says hes neither, your using that scripture to say the neither of your beliefs are the correct ones, like u stated earlier theres the truth and then mans interpretation of it.....and humans are not advanced enough to see gods truth.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 5, 2010 8:32:04 GMT -5
To ryan im more logical than u give me credit for. In your little rant about asking the angel, i get what ur saying when he says hes neither, your using that scripture to say the neither of your beliefs are the correct ones, like u stated earlier theres the truth and then mans interpretation of it.....and humans are not advanced enough to see gods truth. Close but not quite The point of the "rant" is that truth doesn't belong to either me, bob or engin. Truth belongs to God. I'm not saying none of us right. But it is for us to be aligned with that truth. Joshua was aligned with Gods plan. The cananites were not. I'm not sure if I'm making my point here......sigh
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 5, 2010 9:24:45 GMT -5
Titus Flavius Clemens (c.150 - c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria, was a Christian theologian and the head of the noted Catechetical School of Alexandria.
Eusebius of Caesarea, c. 263–339 AD, called Eusebius Pamphili, became the Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine about the year 314. Eusebius, historian, exegete and polemicist is one of the more renowned Church Fathers. He (with Pamphilus) was a scholar of the Biblical canon.
Eusebius quotes from some earlier writings that now only exist through his quotations:
"Clement (c.150 - c. 215), in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes thus:
"The Lord after his resurrection imparted knowledge to James the Just and to John and Peter, and they imparted it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy, of whom Barnabas was one. " - Church History II.1.3-5
what is written above about James,John,Peter and Barnabas is a very interesting information for the reasons that i will mention below;
The Apocalypse of Peter
"....When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?...."
"....The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me....."
"....And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel, in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law...."
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The (First) Apocalypse of James
"..And the Lord appeared to him. Then he stopped (his) prayer and embraced him. He kissed him, saying, "Rabbi, I have found you! I have heard of your sufferings, which you endured. And I have been much distressed. My compassion you know. Therefore, on reflection, I was wishing that I would not see this people. They must be judged for these things that they have done. For these things that they have done are contrary to what is fitting."
The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them."
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The Acts of John
"Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer."
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Gospel of Barnabas
"...Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?
And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil. .."
".......When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible."
"......As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth....."
"......Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad? ....."
"....Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me."
"..cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus.."
"..Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose. The high priest then commanded, under pain of anathema;, that no one should talk of Jesus of Nazareth;. And so there arose a great persecution, and many were stoned and many beaten, and many banished from the land, because they could not hold their peace on such a matter."
"..Jesus came, surrounded with splendour, to the room where abode Mary the Virgin with her two sisters, and Martha and Mary Magdalen, and Lazarus, and him who writes, and John and James and Peter. Whereupon, through fear they fell as dead. And Jesus lifted up his mother and the others from the ground, saying: 'Fear not, for I am Jesus; and weep not, for I am alive and not dead.' They remained every one for a long time beside himself at the presence of Jesus, for they altogether believed that Jesus was dead."
Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus."
The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."
And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in Israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."
And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven.
"...After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen."
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 5, 2010 9:36:25 GMT -5
The point of the "rant" is that truth doesn't belong to either me, bob or engin. Truth belongs to God. I'm not saying none of us right. But it is for us to be aligned with that truth. agreed ! one thing we all know for sure that we all will die soon or late,then either we all will be gone forever or we will be judged,by the Creator.HE or they (trinity) will tell us the truth.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 5, 2010 10:45:57 GMT -5
lol
yup
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 5, 2010 17:37:20 GMT -5
The point of the "rant" is that truth doesn't belong to either me, bob or engin. Truth belongs to God. I'm not saying none of us right. But it is for us to be aligned with that truth. agreed ! one thing we all know for sure that we all will die soon or late,then either we all will be gone forever or we will be judged,by the Creator.HE or they (trinity) will tell us the truth. Agreed. I'll leave it alone now, because we are beginning to go in circles. You know I don't recognize the sources you quoted in your last post. They are not canonical. Anyone can write what they feel. The church fathers have rejected those sources as not inspired. With regards to Peter, read Acts 2 and 3 completely. If you were to know the Gospels, you would not question the primacy of Peter. He spoke for the other apostles many times. His name appears 195 times, more than all the rest put together. It has been a pleasure, but this dialog has cost me some sleep... I need to rest up before we continue. Take care Engin.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 5, 2010 17:51:03 GMT -5
A successful discussion comes to close. Without anyone being offended. This is great. But one constant remains the same. Ignorant folks who don't care about God one way or the other try to put Christians in a box. This is how Christians should act This is how Christians talk. This is how Christians should preach Christians are suppose to remain silent, non offensive, sit in the corner and radiate gods love for all people regardless of their religion. Because after all everyone is going to heaven because everyone is a good person. I protest!! Anyways..... Now that's a rant
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 5, 2010 18:13:19 GMT -5
You know I don't recognize the sources you quoted in your last post. They are not canonical. Anyone can write what they feel. The church fathers have rejected those sources as not inspired. you believe in church fathers and it is your faith which no one can argue about.all i say is that there have been other sources as well,even though the church fathers that you believe in rejected them and persecuted the ones that believed differently. With regards to Peter, read Acts 2 and 3 completely. If you were to know the Gospels, you would not question the primacy of Peter. He spoke for the other apostles many times. . you mean Peter who was called "hypocrite" along with James and Barnabas by Paul? and you mean the Acts which was written by Luke according to what Paul said? ok. it was nice chatting with you as well.
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Post by kevinvanmencxel on Aug 13, 2010 13:56:04 GMT -5
I think Muslims will try to live as close/good as possible to their 5 pillars in life to get as close to God as possible don't they Engin ? Such as the salat,hadj,... if i ain't wrong what i learned in school
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 13, 2010 14:59:18 GMT -5
I think Muslims will try to live as close/good as possible to their 5 pillars in life to get as close to God as possible don't they Engin ? Such as the salat,hadj,... if i ain't wrong what i learned in school yes 5 main pillars as follow; To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but GOD and Muhammad is GOD's apostle. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. To pay Zakat (i.e. obligatory charity). To perform Hajj (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca). To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. but of course there are more to follow.
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Post by kevinvanmencxel on Aug 15, 2010 14:43:19 GMT -5
So actually the Muslim faith is abit the same as Calvinism. In the Calvinisme they try to make their life as good as possible towards God to be selected so they get a place in heaven. I think they name it the "predestination" but not sure thought. Need to check my schoolbooks of history for that
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