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Post by enginterzi on Aug 22, 2010 11:24:24 GMT -5
if 70% of the public vote (through media ) does not want Obama administration,would this mean that it is against the democracy if Obama keeps being American President? or he has got the right to be American president by democratic American voting? unofficial desires of the public through media has nothing to do with the democracy AS LONG AS it is against the law.they can ask to change the law. again,this matter is a matter of respecting public expectations and people who ask for building a mosque near ground zero and officials who allow them should consider the voice of public.but again,the unofficial voice of public through media has nothing to do with democracy.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 22, 2010 15:27:48 GMT -5
No Engin we elect officials to vote for us, but this country is ours an yes the majority of our country voted for Obama an he "IS" president right smart guy? ? But telling them they can't build it there is not making a law against it, it's simply telling them no an that would not violate a right because they aren't making a law for or against a religion they are telling them they can't build a building there. They are supposed to speak for US no the other way around bro. An there is no law saying they can't tell them no about building a building there. An I am not going on just media's "OPINION" Engin. Most of the people I know have said not to build it there, most of the people on this board have said they don't agree, so thats not media man. You don't live here anyways so how would you know?
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 22, 2010 15:31:27 GMT -5
Representative Representative democracy involves the selection of government officials by the people being represented. If the head of state is also democratically elected then it is called a democratic republic.[50] The most common mechanisms involve election of the candidate with a majority or a plurality of the votes.
Representatives may be elected or become diplomatic representatives by a particular district (or constituency), or represent the entire electorate proportionally proportional systems, with some using a combination of the two. Some representative democracies also incorporate elements of direct democracy, such as referendums. A characteristic of representative democracy is that while the representatives are elected by the people to act in their interest, they retain the freedom to exercise their own judgment as how best to do so.
SUPPOSED to act in our best interest but don't have too an this is one of those times. Im done with this thread I have no control over what they do anyways.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 22, 2010 15:56:51 GMT -5
i did not say Obama is not your president,it was an example of a fact which can not be changed by unofficial public vote.i did not say that you shape your mind with media opinion.first understand what i said then answer.the 70% of the vote is an official voting? or a percentage which is determined through media ? how did you reach to 70% vote result?
they are not going to start a public voting everytime there is a discussion. you give them responsibility to make choices within the laws which are made by the represantatives of the public.
you seriously can not get my points.i am not saying that majority are not against this mosque idea.that is why i wrote they need to consider public opinion.what i am saying is different than what you understand.democratic majority can not be determined by the unofficial media votings or by the opinions of the people whom Johnny knows.otherwise presidents would be elected by the people whom Johnny knows.
you can not tell them "they can not build there" which is an order,you can say "we dont want them to build there" which is an opinion.same as 70% of the public may want their salaries to be increased by 200% but it does not mean that its possible.that is why you choose "CHOISEN ONES TO REPRESANT YOU" and they decide what to do.
once again,i am not saying i live in USA and neither i know what majority wants.you can not find such thing in my words.i say what majority wants can be determined by official voting,so it can be said "a democratic choice".
government is elected by you,and they are not going to start a public voting everytime they decide to do something within the rules.you raise your voice and rest is up to them.if you dont like it then you vote someone else next time.this is how this game is played.
just in case you again did not understand what i wrote.i believe that majority opinion is against this mosque.i believe that state should listen the public voice.but one can not claim to say that if mosque is built there it would be officially againt the democracy.democracy criterias should be judged within the law and by official voting results.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 22, 2010 16:05:21 GMT -5
70% it's call guesstimating it's a figure of speech meaning that the majority don't agree. AND YES THANK GOD "YOU" get it. There should be a public voting system cause they are scre*wing us in the a s s over here. I get what your trying to say Engin but no matter what you say you live in Turkey I live in America, MY country. Any person that lives here in America understands figures of speech, I understand it's a hard language to learn but anybody of average intelligence over here understands figures of speech why can't you? We CAN tell them they can't build there, they do that sh*t to people all the time, what makes this any different?? I have personally seen it done. I just personally think the mosque should be built a couple more blocks away just no that close out of the range the debris fell that sounds fair enough. Again I live here I know an you live thousands of miles away in another country. We just going to have to agree to disagree im not typing anymore. ps. How do they know our best interest without a public voting? An the game is called lets scr*w the general public 99% of the time(figure of speech just in case you get confused). The majority didn't want that stupid health care bill passed it got passed. 51% of politicians are corrupt(again figure of speech).
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 22, 2010 16:22:39 GMT -5
yes but you can not say "ALLOWING THE MOSQUE IS AGAINST THE DEMOCRACY BY THE UNOFFICIAL VOTING RESULTS". have you heard of referandum? that is why they do such thing when necessary.there should be a public voting system everytime government wants to do something? it would be hard to control the country.you vote for them by trusting in their desicions.public may not know everything as good as the choicen ones.if you would let public to decide everything then guess how the country would become. listen Johnny,it is not about where you live,it is about common sense.you now write against your own word by asking "How do they know our best interest without a public voting? ". as you wrote that there is no public voting about this subject,so talking about 70% of against vote makes no sense,that is why i talk about average intelligent level.but you are getting better by asking official public voting about this subject instead of the opinions of northeast message board or the opinions of the people whom Johnny knows.i finally brought you to my point which an official public voting.good progress Johnny but you need to understand one more thing,government can not do a public voting in every discussion in the country.there are thousands of matters and it would result with chaos if you ask public opinion in every case. Johnny,it is not about being in USA or somewhere else.i am not talking about the case in USA.i am talking about how democracy works and i do not need to be an American to know such thing. you can tell them "THEY CAN NOT" when they do something against the law and at that point the court involves in it.you can only state your opinion and if they listen then they do as you wish.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 22, 2010 16:25:13 GMT -5
The majority didn't want that stupid health care bill passed it got passed. 51% of politicians are corrupt(again figure of speech). see that is a good example and it is not against democracy.Bush has done many things and he was re-elected by majority but the whole world suffers because of his political and economical desicions.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 22, 2010 17:40:59 GMT -5
Oh, and I don't like the mosque 2 blocks away from ground zero either, for whatever reason. It just don't feel right...call me a bigot. Then I am a Bigot right along with you. i am not an American but a Muslim.IMO your expectations should be respected by the Muslims who are planning to build the Mosque NEAR ground zero.it is better for the peace in US and for the peace in the World.a Mosque is house to worship GOD,it is not a house to create problems within the public.
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Post by kyledarby on Aug 23, 2010 1:44:14 GMT -5
The majority didn't want that stupid health care bill passed it got passed. 51% of politicians are corrupt(again figure of speech). see that is a good example and it is not against democracy.Bush has done many things and he was re-elected by majority but the whole world suffers because of his political and economical desicions. Thread jacking Well Engin I have to disagree with you. To some degree his desicion created jobs and added stimulation to the Us economy. It created a demand for military personel. He also created a need for private security and corrections over seas. It also supported federal prisons. Some of the jobs were high paying and tax free because it was earned on foreign soil. So regardless of popular belief not all of the consequences were negative. The biggest setback in the american economy is illegal immigration. It consumes millions if not billions every year.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2010 4:59:20 GMT -5
so i guess Bush left a heaven to Obama administration,human memory has always surprised me..
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Post by Michael Wells on Aug 23, 2010 6:10:46 GMT -5
so i guess Bush left a heaven to Obama administration,human memory has always surprised me.. Engin, I'm pretty sure Kyle didn't mean that at all. At what point is our new president going to quit blaming Bush. Bush, by far, left him a clean slate. Bush has been his excuse since day one. Barry is making this world much better.....for everyone OTHER than the Constitution-clinging American citizen. The only job "opportunity" I know of is at the unemployment offices. Surprised we haven't made it mandatory (no discrimination clause) for illegals to fill those spots.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2010 7:22:32 GMT -5
US economy was the center of global economic crisis and i guess that responsibility belongs to Bush administration.
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Post by John Byerley on Aug 23, 2010 12:01:10 GMT -5
Finger pointing in politics - especially at THIS level, is pointless.
Under Billl Clinton's administration - the housing regulations were ALL BUT thrown out. All of a sudden EVERYBODY could buy a house. Because it was thought that, "Everybody has a right to own a home."
People were able to buy homes at ridiculous adjustable interest rates with little to no money down, no savings for the extras that come with home ownership, and without the knowledge to do so in the process....and with less stringent income requirements.
Look at what was at the core of the economy crisis - AIG, housing finance, Fraddie Mac...
People once again felt they were ENTITLED to something without either earning or preparing for it...they deserved to own a home, so "let me buy a home."
We exited the Clinton years with a HUGE surplus, but with an inevitable collapse. No one can dispute that. Add two VERY expensive, ongoing wars to the housing collapse, and we have the "great recession."
The Bush administration was accompanied by a democratic congress - but thats besides the point.
ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON have agendas that put what is in America's best interest ON HOLD while they persue those "hidden" agendas.
This has been going on for a long time now.
But the whole BUSH did this ITS his fault thing is about as valid an argument as "saying the world is flat."
Alot of different people from all sides of the political aisle were taking turns driving the bus that ran our economy into the ground.
And whats going on NOW IN WASHINGTON, the policies that have been introduced and the money that has been exhausted - is doing UNPRECEDENTED damage to our future economy.
Nobody has ever been able to do more damage while convincing this much of the population that they're TRYING TO SWEEP UP SOMEBODY ELSE's MESS...
Its a joke....and no matter the fault...when you take a job be a freakin man. When Obama's presidency is over he will have noone to blame for either his successes or failures but HIMSELF. And two years into this to be CONSTANTLY blaming a former president for the current situation WHILE YOU PERSONALLY HAVE MULTIPLED OUR NATIONAL DEBT is ridiculously immature and arrogant.
BUT hes only doing it because people buy into it. ALOT OF PEOPLE. Alot of people love his sarcastic, arrogant humor, used to get laughs from his FANS, but I can't stand it.
Clinton Bush and Obama share HUGE individual blames for big oversights and ignorant policy decisions that got us here, but once again WHO CARES?? Its the current presidents job to do what he can while here to make things better, and if he doesn't, on to the next one.
And the next one, we can ONLY HOPE, will be decent.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 23, 2010 12:01:51 GMT -5
When it's a controversial issue for us, we should be allowed to vote, I understood all that stuff the whole time Engin I wasn't disagreeing with you on that. But like I said there is nothing I can do about it anyways ....... But I think outside where the debris field was would be a good enough distance so as to not be offensive in my opinion.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 23, 2010 12:50:46 GMT -5
the same here Johnny,i was not disagreing with the protesters.i just disagreed with people who wanted to build mosque near ground zero, with people who allowed them and with people who provocated public to make this matter become an anti-islamic campaign.
but these kind of problems should be solved with common sense.if it is disturbing a big part of the public then just go and build somewhere else.continuing in this way is helping the extremists to continue their anti-islamic campaign.public has a pain about WTC attack and their sensitivity should be respected.
i do not think that it is wrong to build a mosque there as Islam is not responsible for 9-11.
but,not caring about what others feel is what is wrong in this subject.
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