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Post by David Owens on Apr 4, 2011 15:15:39 GMT -5
1) Didn't say it was a failed search because you didn't find God - its failed because NO answer was found - and you provided your own answer of - "God is fiction - the Bible is fiction - Faith is fiction" - whatever helps you sleep at night 2) My post was not hateful - I defend non-believers all day long when they are attacked for simply not believing - I'll defend people of faith just the same when their views are belittled. 3) Your statements are judgments on peoples lives - which is the very same thing the church is guilty of so much - and part of which gives a large percentage of it a bad name 4) I don't look to you for what is and what is not Christ like - thank you though. You can LOL all day long. How cute. 5) Another thing you didn't get - I asked question until I found out an answer. And then I kept asking questions because no matter how long you live there will always be something you don't know, unless you're David Owens of course. Its called a quest for knowledge - and like you said to each his own. Some people have their limits in that search. I just think its important to always keep learning, about more than just this topic, about anything that is beneficial to you or your family. Thats common sense. I DONT HAVE IT FIGURED OUT - and neither do you. Your conclusion was thoughtless because of how you presented - full of nothing BUT disrespect and arrogance. If you don't see that now than you may never will. Don't lump me WITH ANYONE you've ever known, or been affected by when it comes to the faith. You do NOT know me - so don't make assumptions, it just makes you look foolish. And everything I said was not directed at you, but you can take it that way if you like, people love take all the credit in a debate as if I wake up in the morning to use you as an example. You believe I have a wall up? If there is anything that I do not claim it is to know everything, or much at all - I do however know more than alot of people because I care more than alot of people - thats just the way it is. There's nothing I enjoy more than traveling - and I have had the priviledge of doing so alot in my life, and meeting alot of different types of people. I'm as open minded as any believer you will ever meet. I work in an oil refinery 12-13 hours a day and I live to take care of my wife and make sure shes happy and has everything she needs and most of what she wants. I'm just a normal, hard-working guy, who abides by certain principles and tries my best to live by my faith. Die hard sports fan - I love to play poker, box/fight/wrestle, and sit around and have a few beers with the guys from time to time. I believe doing most things in life in moderation is just fine. But yet you would make me out to be a fool - because of what I believe. Because I believe we are not here by accident or coincidence, and have all the proof I need that lead to that conclusion. Any time you want to take this debate to another level and use words instead of texts, then I'm open ears. Its hard to get anything across on here and easy for people like you to keep rationalizing your assumptions of me and life in general. Show me any proof behind the words in the bible and not only will I say I was wrong you will have restored the faith I once had and so much enjoyed...good luck Where did I belitttle your beliefs, by stating my own? I said the bible was great attemp at keeping us in check but mostly fiction was that it....that is my belief Where is my judgement on peoples lifes again? I said several times I don't discount anyones beliefs no matter what they are The christ like line was a small attempt at humor....glad you found it funny So you are still on your search for knowledge but have clearly decided which way you belive without ending that search, I don't know it all and you are right I gave up on my search, there is only so many lines of bs I can chew without any evidence of anything Where did I make anyone out to be a fool, im glad you have the faith you have and applaud anyone for whatever they belive, I wish I still could but I will not pretend I do ever again I would rather be a real whatever I am than a fake christian like I once was because I enjoyed the lifestyle Furthermore I don't belive we are here by accident I belive there is something bigger I just don't belive the words of the bible at least not in full.....that much we agree on My number is 931 670 4445 and would be happy to debate anything you wanna debate but if all you have for me is quotes of scripture then save it because I have had 30 years of that and it proves nothing |
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Post by Dan Benoit on Apr 4, 2011 17:03:10 GMT -5
I only got to page 7...but im gonna open a damn church asap
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Post by Dan Benoit on Apr 4, 2011 17:15:57 GMT -5
$$BANK ROLL$$
Religions are to let leaders get where they wanna be. I just honestly dont see how people can argue the fact that people made these religions up?? there made up to control you. Now before someone gets it twisted, religion isnt a bad idea. It lets the rich people get where they want, while also helping directionless people find a way. Directionless people includes me u and everyone when we are born. Could you imagine what things would be like?
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Post by John Byerley on Apr 4, 2011 17:51:02 GMT -5
1) Show me any proof behind the words in the bible and not only will I say I was wrong you will have restored the faith I once had and so much enjoyed...good luck Where did I belitttle your beliefs, by stating my own? I said the bible was great attemp at keeping us in check but mostly fiction was that it....that is my belief Where is my judgement on peoples lifes again? I said several times I don't discount anyones beliefs no matter what they are The christ like line was a small attempt at humor....glad you found it funny So you are still on your search for knowledge but have clearly decided which way you belive without ending that search, I don't know it all and you are right I gave up on my search, there is only so many lines of bs I can chew without any evidence of anything Where did I make anyone out to be a fool, im glad you have the faith you have and applaud anyone for whatever they belive, I wish I still could but I will not pretend I do ever again I would rather be a real whatever I am than a fake christian like I once was because I enjoyed the lifestyle Furthermore I don't belive we are here by accident I belive there is something bigger I just don't belive the words of the bible at least not in full.....that much we agree on My number is 931 670 4445 and would be happy to debate anything you wanna debate but if all you have for me is quotes of scripture then save it because I have had 30 years of that and it proves nothing Just curious from what I've said so far, which has been extensive, what would give you the impression I'd sit here and quote scripture all day about anything? ;D I thought one would assume the opposite. As a striving Christian - I don't spend alot of time trying to prove Noah's Ark - or how many days it took to create the world. My opinions on those things are simple. Like you said you agree there is a higher power, or something bigger going on. Agreed. I WILL use a scripture to introduce my own philosophy on that. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways." Realistically speaking, whatever could possibly put into motion our own and our planet's existence, our universe - would have to be a pretty amazing specimen. In the correct translation in Genesis, it says something to the tune of, "and God laid out the dimensions." SCIENTIFICALLY that makes more sense - all of what we can comprehend has some sort of dimensional level - plants, animals, us, space, time - all having different levels of comprehension, and awareness. Whatever created us would have too be LIGHT YEARS more complex in terms of dimensions. We would not be able to comprehend how "HE" operates - or what "HE" is capable of. QUESTIONS regarding HOW THIS HAPPENED - HOW LONG DID THIS TAKE - may only be answered if and when you get the chance to ask "HIM" yourself. Like I said, little of the Christian walk has to do with historical religion and where we come from - its about living Christ' example. You say show proof? Of what? I can tell you that if you try and be and set a good example in life - how you live, how you treat people, how you give, how you serve, how you show humility, passion, patience, forgiveness, love, hope - I can PROVE through countless life experiences on how beneficial it is to others - and HOW LIVING THE OPPOSITE walk - which I HAVE DONE AS WELL - how damaging it is to yourself and those around you. The BIBLE HAS A MILLION TRUTHS - wisdom - in a thousand examples and scenarios that still rings true today - considering the people that wrote the books, more times than not, were just NORMAL people, I truly believe MOST of what has survived in terms of instruction and wisdom - is GOD inspired. We can easily share a spiritual side with "GOD" - and "HE" could easily communicate using our own forms of understanding. Once again - as a person who really WANTED to know everything about everything when it came to the universe - I accepted that I can't - not because it didn't happen - but because I probably can't comprehend it in the first place. How could any of us? Whatever is it - it would be out of our reaches of understanding - a science above our science. And I'm OK with that - because it makes sense. You said you were a FAKE Christian at one point - I understand what you mean - you're not the only one. Its easy to get like that - its easy to misunderstand what being a Christian is in the first place. Its not about knowing where we come from, its about knowing where you want to go - in terms of the type of example you want to set for your family - friends - and people you have yet to meet. How? By applying the ethics, principles, and wisdom - the character - of Jesus. You know, Jesus' name gets thrown alot - and all too often THE PERSON gets forgotten in the RELIGIOUS TALK. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE FAITH - the carryout of that faith. Life is VERY VERY hard - and more so for some than others. There are HORRIBLE things going on in our world every day - and it takes every ounce of fortitude to truly set an example for others. I CAN ONLY HOPE that one day someone looks back on my life and says - JOHN was a straight up GOOD dude, who cared about people. RELIGION and DIFFERENT IN OPINION on texts of the Bible ROB the core of Christianity away from people's eyes and turn them to SELFISH indulgences of the Christian faith - thus, the fake Christian emerges. Full of selfish, self-promoting faith - that does little for him or anyone around him. Its deceit. The core is Jesus Christ - his life - his sacrifice. Without it, I truly believe we would be lost. I KNOW FOR A FACT - this UNITED STATES of AMERICA WOULD NOT be here, PERIOD, END OF. ALTHOUGH the people who founded this country were far from perfect - MANY Christian principles went into the framework, and still are shown in the way many of us live our lives, regardless of religion. As a people, we are exceptional - but I don't know if I could say that fifty years from now, only time will tell. You ask for proof - the greatest proof FOR MYSELF, is the spiritual side of things I have been exposed to - I have seen people healed, friends - I've seen PURE evil on several occasions. I've felt it. When I was 17 I spoke in tongues when I woke up in the middle of the night praying for someone - I literally FELT what I can only explain as the spirit of God come over me. That may sound far-fetched and thats fine. But I was a good kid, down to Earth, didn't drink, smoke, and I was sober ;D I had never done it before, and not sense - but I KNEW what it was. It was another level. I have witnessed exercisms - not fun - not like on TV - not a joke - not good. The term DEVIL gets overplayed - but there IS a spiritual side to our world little can or would want to acknowledge - but I can tell you this - GOOD is GOOD, and EVIL is EVIL - period. I myself do not go to church - I don't relate with most church goers. I am friends with many as I am friends with many who have never set foot in a church. I do visit different churches from time to time, and my family still attends every Sunday at a GOOD church closeby. I have gone and miss several churches I lived closed to and attended in the past - in Conroe TX and in Franklin TN - good people. Hopefully again in the future. SOUTH SOUTH TEXAS is not an exemplary place to live - to say the least.  But its aight. Sorry if that is not what you were looking for, but its a little look into what and why I believe what I believe, and why I say I know enough and have seen enough EVIDENCE to allow room for some FACTs as apart of my Faith. I hopefully will acquire more as I go along. I'm just trying my best one day at a time to be a better person, husband, son, and friend, and ARM WRESTLER - and working on that more and more  You'll notice I don;t start alot if any threads - I only chime in when I see something wrong going on in terms of close mindedness. When I hear Christians being called brainwashed idiots and the Bible being downplayed to nothing more than a book of lies and a work of fiction - I don't think that's fair, accurate, respectful, necessary, or acceptable. I may think alot of people are idiots - but I'm not going to post that on here, because its not responsible, its not respectful - and whats the point. At the same time, I would not post that the rock of millions of people's faith is a joke - because that is my belief, its not right. PEOPLE at times are a joke - and many men have MADE A JOKE out of CERTAIN aspects of the Bible, religion, leadership, and life. That does not discount the source - and the source with all my heart I believe is rooted in THAT higher power, and made real into our own existence through the life of Jesus. Do unto others as you would have them do you unto you - if every one did, we wouldn't be sitting here discussing this. Take care. |
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Post by James Worke on Apr 4, 2011 18:50:58 GMT -5
Wow. This was a very good post to follow. I try to keep quite when my knowledge is limited and just try to learn from others. All you guys have really good informative posts.
I love my Lord Jesus Christ. That is a fact. I also have lots of love for my armwrestling coach, david owens. Regardless of daves beliefs, he puts others before hisself more times than not, which is one of the golden rules i can always improve on.
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Post by David Owens on Apr 4, 2011 18:59:52 GMT -5
Like I said before there is alot of good that comes from the bible, it is a good teacher of how we should act, just because I dont believe the bible doesnt mean I don't live my life somewhat close to what you would call a christian, take out the church the bible and the fellow christians and I am living my life the same way I was when I was considering myself a christian
I still use most of the same principles of the bible to raise my kids, the difference between right and wrong, and how to treat people ....there are many good things that can be taught from the bible without belief in it
me saying I believe the bible is mostly fiction is not the same as calling it a joke, I respect anyone who believes it and simply don't, if I don't believe it isn't that the same as saying I think its fiction?
sounds like your way of thinking is not too far from mine except you believe in christ and I don't, its my belief that a GOD would not need a son for any purpose least of which is freeing the world of their sins
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Post by TK on Apr 4, 2011 19:36:56 GMT -5
Brainwashed...I love the occasional verbal slap downs about all people who would be so outrageously ignorant to believe there is a God. Brainwashed? TK you and your family officially have an open invitation to South Texas to see how us brainwashed people operate out here. I'll take care of hotel and food, and we'll have a few good practices as well. Its a shame that ANYONE feels ok making such huge generalizations about people of faith - brainwashed. I don't need the existence of God or the Devil to keep me in line. I'm a grown man who keeps myself in line because I was taught right from wrong and shown how to do so from a young age, by parents who did the same - and because it is better for you and those around you to conduct yourself accordingly - believing is to me, an intelligent decision reached from observational data - to YOU, NOT believing in God is possibly the same thing, an intelligent decision reached from what you yourself have experienced and observed. The majority of brainwashing in life that I see is the self BRAINWASHING we put ourselves through to rationalize our own contrived thoughts and actions. People can believe as they wish - but placing all believers in the psych ward with the rest of the mentally incompetent is no better than the preacher who says you're going to hell for every little thing you do wrong in life - EXTREME views. Same diff as religious folks saying the bible is the only way. My way is not the only way, but it's what I prefer. These are my opinions on the subject. Brainwashing? Persuasion of peoples thoughts to think the way "you do" Religious folks are quick to spread the word! Non beleivers like myself will not preach to a stranger so's they can be saved. John, Most crazy @$$ people I met who need a psych ward have been. The ones I've heard hollering all about God talking to them. Or swear they have demons. (my ex-wife) Just to enlighten you, my wife believes in god, she don't go to church...,(business) but she believes! My son goes to a church daycare. Not a soul there knows my beliefs and we break bread together. So as you see I don't try to brainwash the people around me, I just keep it to myself. We debate here cos' it's fun. Brainwash sounds harsh, but it's the truth. I think for myself, therefore my mind is free. Not lead to believe in anything else but myself. John you're a heck of a guy on the subject! Anytime you're in my area feel free to drop by! TK |
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Post by John Byerley on Apr 4, 2011 20:09:50 GMT -5
Brainwashing is true for some, not for all. Some choose to believe, and I'm one of those people - not through persuasion, but through my own search to that conclusion. Not all churches conduct themselves as money-sucking fortune 500 companies - there are good churches, lead by selfless men, whose only purpose is to serve. Generalizing all churches into the category of brainwashing clinics is irresponsible, and untrue. That is why you won't hear me say the Bible is the only way - that is not the message of Christ I don't care what ANYone else says about that. From my own study there isn't anything further from the truth - I do believe there are several paths than can be taken, which I won't get into, but I believe the end is the same. But if the message anyone gets from study of the Bible is its the only way to salvation - then they have not studied the Bible and historical texts deep enough to know enough on the subject to discuss. People who read the King James Version of the Bible and think it was actually written that way thousands of years before need a reality check. Here's the first clue - ITS CALLED THE KING - JAMES - VERSION - REALLLY?  ?? The most read, publicized book of all time is now reduced to a VERSION. It was in some respect's a very valid attempt - but in others, very poor attempts were made, and I believe for many reasons, some known some unknown. All that said - if you want to know what the Bible has to say - or if you want to speak against what the Bible says - then it only makes sense to have a firm grasp of what you are talking about before doing so. That is the same with any topic, with any debate - what is the point of an opinion without a full scope of all available facts? Then its just chit chat to pass the time. But if you don't care enough to study the origins translations and proper contextual nature of the Bible, why care enough to call it fiction? A guide to keep people in check? I don't know I guess thats why I get involved in these chats - because that always throws me for a loop. I wouldn't get on here and discuss Astro-Physics without a degree or an extensive background in the subject - if I did - what would my opinion be worth? Absolutely NOTHING! I'm glad you guys are doing your best in your own personal lives, and making valid attempts on leading decent lives. And thats a good thing. Lastly, David, the term "SON OF GOD" - is an over-used phrase that really has no meaning. Jesus was not God's son - that makes no sense - logically - scientifically - and only fractionally spiritually. Jesus was a vessel used by God to demonstrate perfection in human form, a perfect example, God's spirit displayed in human form - a sacrifice for the ATONEMENT OF SIN. Not to save the world from sin - thats a 5 hour discussion - and a good one too. As for not believing in Jesus? not sure what that meant. Jesus is well-documented historically in many texts other than the Bible - and considering he is an ANCIENT figure - the amount of evidence, especially for just a lowly carpenter from Nazareth - is staggering. That SHOWS THE EPIC impact he made on those who knew him. Unlike Santa Claus, belief or disbelief in Jesus THE MAN is useless, as its historical fact. As far as the spiritual aspect - thats something you either accept or don't accept about life - that there is a spiritual side. And thats a personal journey. Having not experienced those things, its a valid opinion to say you don;t believe in it. But I assure you once you experience spiritual events - then the whole idea of BELIEVING or NON-BELIEVING seems petty and distant. Wish you guys the best and hope to meet train and pull you guys one day. Take care. TK - heard Lakeland got hit pretty good the other day with nasty weather - hope you and your family have a great summer without the weather getting in the way. |
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Post by John Byerley on Apr 4, 2011 20:26:48 GMT -5
And please don't want any slack about my statements on Jesus. Everything I say is a part of what I believe after immense study and contemplation on the subject. Jesus is considered by so many Christians to be divine - but in reality - Jesus was human - any miracles, death/resurrection - ascension into Heaven - all related events are just evidence of truly amazing power involved in the Spirit of God - it is that spirit that walked with Jesus since birth - its that spirit that Jesus was referring to when crying out on the cross, "Father why hast thou forsaken me."
Its that holy spirit that guides us today. Its a delicate discussion and it has no definite conclusion - but thats my take on it.
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Post by David Owens on Apr 4, 2011 20:27:36 GMT -5
Lastly, David, the term "SON OF GOD" - is an over-used phrase that really has no meaning. Jesus was not God's son - that makes no sense - logically - scientifically - and only fractionally spiritually. Jesus was a vessel used by God to demonstrate perfection in human form, a perfect example, God's spirit displayed in human form - a sacrifice for the ATONEMENT OF SIN. Not to save the world from sin - thats a 5 hour discussion - and a good one too. As for not believing in Jesus? not sure what that meant. Jesus is well-documented historically in many texts other than the Bible - and considering he is an ANCIENT figure - the amount of evidence, especially for just a lowly carpenter from Nazareth - is staggering. That SHOWS THE EPIC impact he made on those who knew him. Unlike Santa Claus, belief or disbelief in Jesus THE MAN is useless, as its historical fact. I like your explanation that Jesus was a vessel rather than gods son, kinda takes the sillyness out of it, best I've heard yet! I didn't say I dont believe in Jesus I said I didn't believe in christ (meaning christ as the true son of god and the savor), not that he didnt exist at all, one thing there IS plenty of proof of is that he did live. |
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Post by TK on Apr 4, 2011 20:27:57 GMT -5
John,
I'd never say anyone was a bad person for believing , there are some incredible folks in the church.
The church daycare my son goes to has the most genuine people on the planet and they genuinely love my son. I see no wrong in them, they do for the kids all the way.
Those I can trust.
Doesnt change my way of thinking, but it does comfort me.
TK
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Post by David Owens on Apr 4, 2011 20:34:18 GMT -5
That is why you won't hear me say the Bible is the only way - that is not the message of Christ I don't care what ANYone else says about that. From my own study there isn't anything further from the truth - I do believe there are several paths than can be taken, which I won't get into, but I believe the end is the same. quote] this is a very interesting statement to me, most christians will tell you the only way to salvation is through the blood of christ, I would be interested to hear your reasoning for there being several paths which I think most christians would disagree, Church of Christ would flat out tell you that you were wrong |
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Post by John Byerley on Apr 4, 2011 20:39:42 GMT -5
Thats what I'm getting at David - the more I started diving into the things that made NO SENSE at surface value - deeper into what is known, what ACTUALLY was written, the ACCURATE context of teachings, proverbs, parables, discussions in the Bible, and so many other things - things get clearer, and start to make more sense. Unfortunately its like a puzzle but what can you expect? We're talking about ancient languages - and stuff that happened thousands of years ago - but the fact it makes any sense at all is pretty cool in itself.
Jesus was not the only vessel used by God throughout time, he was however chosen as a special example of God's immense power, a 24/7 spirit filled vessel of God carrying out His will on Earth, and through Jesus' death and sacrifice, it showed the deep love and concern he has for his creation - and as an example to follow - which also makes sense, considering man's natural instinct to sin, to fail, to corrupt, to abuse - Jesus' example has had an ENORMOUS effect on humans - Christian teaching has been priceless to humanity in terms of forgiveness, charity, hope, and love.
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Jason Gulley
Gold Member
Tennessee Armwrestling Association
Posts: 529
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Post by Jason Gulley on Apr 4, 2011 21:04:36 GMT -5
its my belief that a GOD would not need a son for any purpose least of which is freeing the world of their sins Its hard for our human minds to rap around what is the purpose of god. With that being said we cant say FOR SURE that god would not need a son for any purpose least of which is freeing the world of their sins. Your first thought would be, If he is god why why why would he give his son to show us anything, he is god. Our second thought would be, would I give my son to free the world of there sins. We are his greatest creation! He want us to choose him on our on free will. I get all that and the bible. But I do struggle with the whole bigger picture David. The main thing I want you to think about is SCARE TACTICS. They are useful in many ways. I used them often in the Marines as a Sgt everyday to accomplish a lot. Lets say we didn't have the bible or any religion. And lets say your 76 yrs of age and your body is almost out of gas. Your thinking there has to be something after this. Or at least the smart people or people of authority that could change that. Naturally we would all get together and come up with a thousand plans that we revise just like your college professor until its one book. You think all these years of evolving we are just going to accept that once we die THAT IS IT. Lets make a book that give people hope and teach people the way to treat each other. And of course different parts of the world can't rule the whole world SO, there is a couple of books. I love the bible and if you would ask me if i am a christian I would say yes. And I am sure the older I get the stronger I will say YES. But when I look at what people would do Logically as the years go by, I would say we would make a book to give us hope and a way to treat each other and a way to live. Im not saying that is what I believe, but logically and keeping my mind grounded to science that is what I would believe. My Dad has more of what people call common sense and not really book worm, and people have told me the same about myself. That and I like to party and the ladies to much. I ask dad lately if he Believed in Jesus and he said he wasn't really sure, but he was sure that there was a god. I said well by the bible if don't believe in Jesus and the new testament you have never communicated with god. He said that is true. One thing I believe in and that is communication. The Man Jesus communicated his love and ways better than any man. Like we say in the marines you have to be a good follower to be a good leader. You cant lead yourself and your loved ones to something much greater than this if you don't follow Christ. One thing about Science is you could spend a lifetime of research proving all this is crazy and its only a hypothesis just like all science is. Or you could believe that Jesus Died for you and through him is eternal life into heaven. Or you could zone out and just think of nothing This is all just imo and obviously and I just wanted to throw a few ideas out there. Thanks for being a good leader for TAA David! ok Ill get off your balls. Yes I said balls and Christ in the same post and the same sentence. I hope there is arm wrestling in Heaven,lol |
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Post by John Byerley on Apr 4, 2011 21:09:25 GMT -5
Well its not really "MY EXPLANATION" - its just observance of inconsistencies in scripture, both modern day translations and historical texts concerning the words of Jesus.
Sometime it sounds like Jesus the human being is talking, and sometimes its as though the Spirit of God is talking. Jesus makes statements as though he is GOD, translated in the KJV as God the father, and at other times speaking as JESUS, translated and portrayed as God the son in KJV.
Well, most Christians just lazily put that together as JESUS AND GOD ARE ONE AND THE SAME. But that, like I said, is just lazy.
Having seen and experienced spiritual events - I know for a fact it is possible for a human to be spiritually consumed by a spirit, good or bad - scary and not so scary. That's been document throughout history as well in many cultures.
My belief and thought process is that there were times when the Spirit of God was speaking, and times when Jesus was speaking. THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF THIS THROUGHOUT THE LIFE OF JESUS. The greatest example is on the cross. Something else I know factually about the spiritual concept, is that when a spirit is in control of a person's actions, the human side feels no pain, its almost like they are hidden behind the dominant spirit.
This is especially true of people who practice ancient forms of demonic witchcraft - the trances they go into,the self mutilation, and the fact that while consumed, they can be 10x stronger than normal - weird - also side note - our voice boxes have the ability to utter separate sounds at the same time - making it possible for more than once voice, several, to speak at the same time.
I REALLY DONT WANT TO GO INTO THAT FURTHER - but I KNOW its possible, and creepy.
That being said, if Jesus was consumed by the spirit of God while on the cross, he would have felt no pain - there would have been no sacrifice, no "suffering" - Jesus was human, and was well aware of his calling, and God's will for his life, you can see this is the garden before he was arrested and later crucified - he was scared - fearful for his life, but KNEW his task, and believed in it. While suffered on the cross in unthinkable agony he cried out to God - why hast thou forsaken me. Who is me? Jesus the human.
As far as our souls - where they originate from - I haven;'t a clue. But many places in the Bible it talks of Jesus having "always been." On a spiritual level, sure why not? But while on Earth Jesus had to experience a human body, a human life, a human mind, a human existence, and was more times than not lead by the spirit of God.
SO THE ULTIMATE STATEMENT - i am the way the truth and the life - no one comes to the father but by me...who was speaking, Jesus, or God? Also there are VERY loose interpretations of "THE FATHER" from the Greek Latin into English.
At times its reference to God, others to eternity, others in reference to "THE TRUTH"
TRUTHFULLY its unknown was was meant here as we do not have the accurate translation - and we weren't there to ask.
I like someone else' take:
"God is kind of a difficult person to get to know. He (I use that pronoun strictly out of habit, and, I suppose, convenience) is omniscient, omnipotent, transcendant and eternal, perceives the whole universe of time and space in one timeless instant, is infinitely wise, infinitely just, and infinitely complex ... If you accept the doctrine of the Trinity (not all Christians do), you have to believe that God is a remote and ineffable Creator, and an omnipresent, invisible, but very real force in the here and now, and a dead Jewish philosopher ... all at the same time. I suspect that getting your head round that little lot is only practice for trying to comprehend the true nature of God.
Basically, it isn't possible for mortal, temporal, intellectually limited human beings to understand the immortal, eternal, boundless nature of God ... without help. If we assume that God wants us to come to an understanding of Him, and to be with Him ... then God has to help us.
This, to me, is the point of the Incarnation. It's God meeting us half-way. It's God taking on all the frailties and limitations of our mortal lives, and explaining to us, as far as we can understand it, how things are meant to be. Jesus Christ is the name by which Christians know that aspect of God which is reaching out to help us to know Him. And, if you are searching for God - no matter how you're searching (and I believe there are followers of other religions, and none, who are truly seeking the truth of existence) - then the first thing you'll find is that aspect of Him ... the part that's searching for you.
Christ is not the bouncer at the door to God. Christ is the door. Christian belief is one way to reach it ... but God is all-loving and all-merciful, and He will not turn away anyone who seeks Him, no matter what path they're on. We have His assurance: "Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you."
God loves us and wants us to love Him. Exclusivity doesn't enter into it. "
That is more in line to what I believe. I do think ACKNOWLEDGING the EXISTENCE and DIVINITY of GOD is important in reaching that END I was talking about. I also think recognizing JESUS as GOD's attempt at communicating with mankind is very important.
BUT I CANT TELL YOU that god has not made at least SOMEWHAT similar attempts throughout history?
IF YOU TAKE THAT VERSE LITERALLY IN THE KJV - then you have given an eternal death sentence to those who have not known Jesus, during the time of Jesus, after JESUS, now there are still people dying who have not heard the name of JESUS in their life. Does that make sense? Millions of Christians think it does...I do not, its not consistence with God's character as represented throughout the Bible.
If I dare - my translation based on what I DO know is - I AM THE WAY TO SALVATION THE TRUTH AND LIFE - YOU CANNOT KNOW ETERNAL TRUTH OR GOD UNLESS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE ME ( me being the power of God as witnessed throughout the miraculous life of Jesus )
But who knows - that just makes sense to me - more sense than the KJV version.
I believe God loves his creation - I believe throughout time he has provided different examples to different cultures for this very reason. Jesus was the SUPREME example - doesn't mean there were not others. What do we know about other ancient cultures in parts of the world other than the middle east? Very little in most cases? Did they have an example? Did God ever reveal himself through human form? I have no idea, but I WILL NOT discount the possibility.
And I WILL NOT question God's infinite mercy and love for his creation - so much so to the point that I say, that all the people who have not recognized Jesus as the only way to truth, are now serving an eternal sentence because of it. No thanks.
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