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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:29:56 GMT -5
Very good topic. From my understandings, Lucifer wasn't actually Satan, but possibly the good guy. I'm not versed on it but listened to others discuss it and give reasoning. Makes it difficult to understand especially when that name equates evil. Lucifer was not the good guy by any means. He is mentioned with pride of thinking he can be higher than God. How is that good to you??? |
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:31:49 GMT -5
The King James version is poetry from 1612. Contrary to popular belief, it is not the most literal translation. It's pretty darn good for 1612. It was translated primarily from the Tyndale (English) translation of the bible. The New Testament was translated from the Septuagint.
The NIV is written in modern English. Great for understanding, not always great for translation. The NIV is about the best understanding of the passage. It's very 'big picture'.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:33:42 GMT -5
Also Ezekiel does not mention the name Lucifer.
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Post by Michael Wells on Jun 1, 2011 17:34:02 GMT -5
My bad.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jun 1, 2011 17:34:11 GMT -5
Wow I have missed a lot today.
I will have to catch up on this one. My pastor and I had this discussion not long ago.
Who is lucifer?
I came to a very uncertain but possible conclusion that lucifer is
Jesus.......
I will explain my thoughts later.... Maybe someone has already said that I don't know.
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:34:30 GMT -5
"^sounds like Lucifer, but then when it mentions Satan in the New Testament he is described as a liar from the beginning. He wasn't perfect in Eden, he was the Serpent the Devil in Eden not someone who was perfect. In Genesis it metions Satan as the serpent. Why didn't it say he was and angel tricking Eve?? " The FALL happened before Adam and Eve. That's pretty much the beginning. Keep in mind that we are talking about spiritual beings who are not confined to time. Time is a measurement based on a fixed point. It is purely physical. What happens in Heaven (or the heavens) is outside of time. True but it says Satan was a liar from the beginning which means he was not perfect, there is not passages that mention Lucifer and Satan in the same pairing. He was in the Garden of Eden and was perfect according to Ezekiel as you used, yet it says Satan was there and he temped Eve which means he was not perfect and holy. How do you figure his creation into the Garden of Eden?  Lucifer was created perfect. God gave Lucifer free will, and Lucifer chose to rebel. (with a third of Heaven) Once Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and separated from God, he was by definition evil because God was no longer in him. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:37:19 GMT -5
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. KJV it's not different
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:37:58 GMT -5
True but it says Satan was a liar from the beginning which means he was not perfect, there is not passages that mention Lucifer and Satan in the same pairing. He was in the Garden of Eden and was perfect according to Ezekiel as you used, yet it says Satan was there and he temped Eve which means he was not perfect and holy. How do you figure his creation into the Garden of Eden? Lucifer was created perfect. God gave Lucifer free will, and Lucifer chose to rebel. (with a third of Heaven) Once Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and separated from God, he was by definition evil because God was no longer in him. If he was cast out how was he perfect in the Garden then before the Garden was created? |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:38:32 GMT -5
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You traded far and wide. You learned to be violent, and you sinned. So I threw you down from God's mountain in disgrace. The guardian angel forced you out from the fiery stones.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:39:19 GMT -5
Bible in Basic English
Through all your trading you have become full of violent ways, and have done evil: so I sent you out shamed from the mountain of God; the winged one put an end to you from among the stones of fire.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jun 1, 2011 17:40:44 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken the name lucifer was only used once in scripture.
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:41:03 GMT -5
I found a link to an explanation that fits pretty well with Ryan's take on it, that Lucifer (capital L) is meant to be Jesus. www.israelofgod.org/lucifer.htmIt does not change that Satan is a bad, only that the name Lucifer should never have applied to Satan in the first place, and we don't know the angelic name of Satan prior to the Fall. Very interesting. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:42:09 GMT -5
The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, a consulted scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati was asked "What Hebrew name was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer." Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King"). The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did NOT use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had 'mistranslated' the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness. Read more: Is Satan the same fallen angel as Lucifer? What is Satan's demonic rank? What is the name of The Prince of Demons? | Answerbag www.answerbag.com/q_view/730868#ixzz1O4DOtN75 |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:43:48 GMT -5
Your right Ryan. Lucifers was mentioned only once in the entire Bible. And it was from Jeromes translation. it was Isaiah 14:12
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jun 1, 2011 17:47:24 GMT -5
Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
This is the only scripture with the name lucifer.
You can go into prophetic if you want to attempt to take it out of context but at face value this is talking about nebachadnezzar. Not Jesus or Satan
The name son of the morning or "morning star" is the name used to reference Christ in revalation.
Lucifer means bearer of light..... Satan has used scripture to convince the world to label HIM as the light bearer.
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