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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 15:18:20 GMT -5
I thought of a good discussion, I honestly have never really given it any thought, I have read that masons are accused of worshipping Lucifer who is actually Satan, now I can't seem to find anything at all in the Bible connecting Lucifer to Satan it seems to be that the name Lucifer was referring to the King of Babylon from what I read. You can connect dots to make Lucifer out to be Satan, but that is just with preconceived teachings we learned growing up. Im not saying Lucifer is a good person he was fallen from heaven so he is bad also. Im just saying I can't find anything saying Satan and Lucifer are the same being but both are bad neither is good. Just wondering. I gotta do a lot more studying on this topic but it's seeming they were two different beings at the moment.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 15:31:43 GMT -5
Is Lucifer and Satan the same? The Bible says Satan is from the beginning a liar, from the day of his creation. Lucifer is not like that, he was a holy cherub till the day he was found guilty. Please compare and give me an answer.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 15:36:44 GMT -5
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works
Could that mean he NEVER was and Angel of Light?
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Post by Hungry Hippo on Jun 1, 2011 16:18:02 GMT -5
2 Kings 24:1 says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of babylon..read the post below to make the reference of Lucifer with Nebuchadnezzar
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Post by Hungry Hippo on Jun 1, 2011 16:46:17 GMT -5
ISAIAH 14:4-16
Pay close attention to verse 4,12 and 16
4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
this chapter is plainly talking about the king of babylon as mentioned in the fourth verse..he was named by God "Lucifer" (as mentioned in verse 12)because of his evil deeds to the nation. Moreover, in verse 16 it plainly says is this "the man" that made the earth to tremble....
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:07:05 GMT -5
Thats what I was wondering Jonathan, because I read that the same exact way. I have studied so far that Lucifer was Nebuchadnezzar. It never mentions anywheres that Satan was an Angel other than that verse right there that people connect to Satan.
"Job 1:6 says- One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."
It doesn't say he was and Angel but he just came to the Lord with them. And then you have the verse below. Seems they were two different people and Satan was not Lucifer but King Nebby.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:08:44 GMT -5
This is a very old argument.
The counterpoint to Jonathan's post is in Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 "Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God;......"
No man would be described as full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. The King of Tyre was not in Eden as the passage alludes to.
The passage in Ezekiel goes further, "With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created..."
I think what the prophets were saying is that these kings (of Babylon as Jonathan rightly points out from Isaiah) and the king of Tyre were puppets of Satan. God gave them their office and instead of worshipping God they followed the desires of Satan and were cast out of their office just as Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for rebellion against God. The prophets are telling us that Satan was the real ruler of these nations.
A lot of confusion comes from the names "Lucifer" and "Satan." Lucifer is a noun name, and Satan is a title or a description. Today we use these names as interchangeable but in actuality they weren't that way originally.
Back to Johnny's original post, the Masons believe that the Great Architect of the Universe is a being called "Baphomet" who is depicted as a cloven hoofed goat... ala Satan. On the symbol you see five Hebrew letters, one letter for each point of the inverted pentagram surrounding Baphomet. L - V - T - H - N In Hebrew, names are not written with the vowels. Just at Yahweh is written YHWH, LVTHN is Leviathan. Another reference to Satan. Pagans will say that Leviathan refers to fertility, etc, but when the name of Leviathan is surrounding an inverted pentacle with a goat head in it called Baphomet, well I think it's pretty clear.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:08:51 GMT -5
Jesus says he seen Satan cast out of Heaven like a lightning bolt. Doesn't say he was and angel and was demoted so to speak. Just that he was cast out. Not allowed there anymore. I never have even thought about this topic before.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:15:11 GMT -5
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: “‘In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.” But you are a mere mortal and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god. 3 Are you wiser than Daniel ?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“‘Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, “I am a god,”
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a mortal, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
^sounds like Lucifer, but then when it mentions Satan in the New Testament he is described as a liar from the beginning. He wasn't perfect in Eden, he was the Serpent the Devil in Eden not someone who was perfect. In Genesis it metions Satan as the serpent. Why didn't it say he was and angel tricking Eve?? |
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:21:06 GMT -5
The Book of Enoch is missing from today's bible. Enoch explains this really well.
The fallen angels did not cease to be angelic beings when they were cast out, they are still their same angelic selves. But they were separated from God. Since all good comes from God, these fallen angels have no good in them and are purely evil. (Total absence of God in them.) They are now demons and devils. They were not cast into Hell, they were cast down to Earth. They roam freely, uninhibited by physicality or time because they are spirits.
The book of Genesis talks about Cain being sent out to the wilderness into the land of Nod. (Which could mean that he wandered.) "There were giants in those days..."
The book of Genesis is incomplete. Enoch explains the fallen angels taking the daughters of men and having offspring. Enoch describes the Nephilim well.
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 1, 2011 17:23:30 GMT -5
"^sounds like Lucifer, but then when it mentions Satan in the New Testament he is described as a liar from the beginning. He wasn't perfect in Eden, he was the Serpent the Devil in Eden not someone who was perfect. In Genesis it metions Satan as the serpent. Why didn't it say he was and angel tricking Eve?? "
The FALL happened before Adam and Eve. That's pretty much the beginning. Keep in mind that we are talking about spiritual beings who are not confined to time. Time is a measurement based on a fixed point. It is purely physical. What happens in Heaven (or the heavens) is outside of time.
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Post by Michael Wells on Jun 1, 2011 17:24:59 GMT -5
Very good topic. From my understandings, Lucifer wasn't actually Satan, but possibly the good guy. I'm not versed on it but listened to others discuss it and give reasoning. Makes it difficult to understand especially when that name equates evil.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:25:42 GMT -5
and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Why the difference int he NIV verson when it says 16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones. see the difference?? Why is the NIV so different from other versions??
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:27:55 GMT -5
"^sounds like Lucifer, but then when it mentions Satan in the New Testament he is described as a liar from the beginning. He wasn't perfect in Eden, he was the Serpent the Devil in Eden not someone who was perfect. In Genesis it metions Satan as the serpent. Why didn't it say he was and angel tricking Eve?? " The FALL happened before Adam and Eve. That's pretty much the beginning. Keep in mind that we are talking about spiritual beings who are not confined to time. Time is a measurement based on a fixed point. It is purely physical. What happens in Heaven (or the heavens) is outside of time. True but it says Satan was a liar from the beginning which means he was not perfect, there is not passages that mention Lucifer and Satan in the same pairing. He was in the Garden of Eden and was perfect according to Ezekiel as you used, yet it says Satan was there and he temped Eve which means he was not perfect and holy. How do you figure his creation into the Garden of Eden?  |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 1, 2011 17:29:17 GMT -5
The Book of Enoch is missing from today's bible. Enoch explains this really well. The fallen angels did not cease to be angelic beings when they were cast out, they are still their same angelic selves. But they were separated from God. Since all good comes from God, these fallen angels have no good in them and are purely evil. (Total absence of God in them.) They are now demons and devils. They were not cast into Hell, they were cast down to Earth. They roam freely, uninhibited by physicality or time because they are spirits. The book of Genesis talks about Cain being sent out to the wilderness into the land of Nod. (Which could mean that he wandered.) "There were giants in those days..." The book of Genesis is incomplete. Enoch explains the fallen angels taking the daughters of men and having offspring. Enoch describes the Nephilim well. True |
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