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Post by Robert Bishop on Jun 6, 2011 12:59:37 GMT -5
i have heard Satan being called by many names
prince of the power of the air
pied piper
light bearer
lucifer
father of all liers
destroyer
Phoenix
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Post by Hungry Hippo on Jun 6, 2011 15:59:37 GMT -5
Angels are "created perfect" but they are not bound to stay that way. God gave them free will just as he gave us free will. We are not created as mindless slaves. Absolutely wrong John..Third heaven angels were created to serve God and not turn their back on Him..WE (mankind) however, were created with a free will..God made us that way cause He gets more Glory out of someone who serves Him on THEIR OWN FREE WILL..you're statement puts us in the same category as angels. |
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 6, 2011 16:42:24 GMT -5
Interesting take, Jonathan. Which scripture points to angels having no free will? Many people would agree with you. I do not, however, based on 1 Corinthians 6:3, which states that we will sit in judgement of the angels. Why would they deserve judgement unless they were capable of sin against God?
There are evil angelic spirits in the world. If these are not fallen angels then God must have created evil spiritual beings. That just isn't the case. God did not create evil.
I think it is a common Christian mistake to put angels on a pedestal where they do not belong. We assign them god-like attributes but this is not scriptural. Angels were not created in the image of God, and in that I agree with what you said. Angels are not equal to us, God has made us in his own image. But 1 Corinthians 6:3 goes farther than that, it says that angels, too, will be judged - even by us.
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 6, 2011 16:50:36 GMT -5
The Fall is described several times in the bible, most specifically in Revelations:
"Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Revelations 12:4 describes, "Even a THIRD of Heaven" to give a number of angels that fell. It is a vision, and the dragon's tail sweeping a third of the stars from Heaven symbolizes Satan taking 1/3 of the angels with him.
This is a description of the Beginning, not the End of Days. The above passage is directly in line with the Book of Enoch. Enoch goes into great detail to describe Satan's attempt to pervert the human race after the fall. These fallen angels took the daughters of Man and had offspring, the Nephilim. This is touched on in Genesis and covered in great detail in Enoch. This is what lead to the flood in the days of Noah.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jun 6, 2011 18:14:22 GMT -5
Robert you can research public records and find that new York accused and convicted Joseph smith of witchcraft. Thus his "inspired" travels through independence Missouri to salt lake city Utah.
They believe that ancient Jews came to America by boat long long ago.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jun 6, 2011 18:16:59 GMT -5
Those scripts he found.... He bought from a carny that was showing off an Egyptian mummy.
At that time no one in America could translate hieroglyphics
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 21:46:27 GMT -5
I found a good Mormon site called Mormon think I believe it was that Mormons themselves ask questions that don't add up. One thing I can say so far about Mormons is that they do believe Jesus is the only way to heaven......... I know they have vastly different beliefs than what you know Baptist, COG, Pent., Cath. ect.... believe but with that being said what is you guys opinions on the rest of the beliefs. Brad had confirmed for me about Jesus and Satan being brothers and from the way he explained it they meant as you know his brother like a human is his brother or sister, he was having trouble trying to explain it because I ask him if Jesus and Satan were brothers that would mean they were both God's sons and that Satan was and equal counterpart, and he said that he could see why I would see it that way but its not so but couldn't explain it well enough for me. Remember im asking him all the questions out of pure curiosity not trying to condemn him, I share my point of view but do so in a way that is not condecending otherwise it just makes people mad and they will not teach you anything about their faith, I have learned that from experience. I like taking a very humble approach to someones faith to learn what they belief while also sharing mine without making them feel like I am trying to cast a judgement. Once again I have learned this from experience is the best way to go about getting someone to open up to you. I like Brad he is a really good guy and one of my best friends.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 21:49:07 GMT -5
I ask him about the Joseph Smith practicing polygamy but he stated thats not true, I know he isn't a "scholar" of Mormonism so we can't say well he is lying because he truly doesn't believe that, but I have read testimonies against Joseph Smith from the women he messed with one of them being as young as 14 years old. You can even look up the stuff on the Mormons ancestry site. But I have heard that some of the women were just trying to get him in trouble also which is another perspective. Same way the pharisees did Jesus. I mean always good to at least understand all perspectives?  |
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Post by John Wilson on Jun 6, 2011 22:30:52 GMT -5
I really respect your approach, Johnny. The mandate from Christ is to spread the gospel, not to pound others into believing as you do. That would be a cult. We are to share our faith and to live as an example of our faith.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 22:50:55 GMT -5
Thanks John, to be completely honest I never even remember Jesus inventing a certain "church", that was man's doing. Even though I personally don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, I can't see a good argument against Mormons beliefs because Christ is their central teaching, they read the KJV of the Bible and believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God and in all the teachings in it. Any discussion guys??? Only reason I even brought up the Mormon thing was because the mis-translation of Isaiah 14:12 completely discounts whole books in the Mormon faith that are central to the extra biblical teachings, which I thought was pretty significant when I was studying the possible effects on the different groups of believers.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 22:52:58 GMT -5
They also believe in the trinity/godhead. I plan on asking my buddy Brad a millions questions and doing some research and comparing beliefs. Works A LOT better if you can talk to the people face to face so nothing is taken out of context when speaking and doesn't come acrossed the wrong way.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 23:03:19 GMT -5
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 6, 2011 23:59:59 GMT -5
The book Gospel Principles is used by the LDS church to train new converts. The last chapter is titled "Exaltation" and explains this concept, "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the father of spirit children. He is a creator. WE CAN BECOME GODS LIKE OUR HEAVENLY FATHER. THIS IS EXALTATION" (pp.289,290).
I have to say that sounds a lot like something Satan said in Genesis though. :/
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 7, 2011 0:03:51 GMT -5
Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test.... With us the Bible is the first book, the Book of Mormon comes next.... There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants.... (Discourses of Brigham Young, selected and arranged by John A. Widtsoe, 1978, page 126)
^Only reason i feel compelled to compare since Mormonism is an unknown faith to me.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jun 7, 2011 0:10:06 GMT -5
I will preach on the plurality of Gods.... I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years ... we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it? (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma L. Burton, 1977, page 35, emphasis added)
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man.... We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see ... he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did... and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you.... (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma L. Burton, 1977, pages 340-341)
^some teachings on God.
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