Amedeo Goga
Silver Member
QUEENS, NEW YORK CITY
Posts: 268
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Post by Amedeo Goga on Jul 19, 2004 0:07:15 GMT -5
Very well said by a great man...I am behind you all the way...MM is a traitor.....
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Post by Gary Roberts on Jul 20, 2004 2:31:03 GMT -5
wow! this conversation is still going on...I think that movie is on video already... ;D
That movie is MM's opinion. He has a right to express it. There is no denying the fact that he believes what he is talking about. He may be wrong, I don't know but he sure does believe it.
here is a different take
Now what if I were to produce a movie on armwrestling with...say...the agenda that armwrestling is a great sport and should be in the olympics.
To me, this is a fact. That would be the angle I would take with my movie.
(but from a non armwrestler's POV, it would be an opinion)
Now don't you think there are people out there who don't know anything about this sport that could or would disagree with me and my facts. (Probably lots...but do I give a rats azz)
No...would I have to tell there side of the story from their POV. No I wouldn't.
I believe what I believe and that is all that matters. As a film maker I have a right to do so. That is what this country is about.
His facts/opinions just happen to be political so therefore he is deemed a traitor.
Like it or love it the freedom to express ourselves through media such as this is very important.
An unfortuate casualty of this freedom is people believing everything they see or hear. This isn't MM's fault.
I hope some of this makes sense. It's late. gnite.
gary
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Post by Chris Coletti on Jul 20, 2004 10:09:07 GMT -5
Hey Gary,
Here's the rebuttal and it is short.
You did not tell me if your movie about arm wrestling puts American lives in danger? That's an important fact that I need. Also does it hurt the reputation not of the president alone but of the young men and women protecting you and putting there lives on the line every day to allow you to stay in your beautiful home and make this movie.
Just a few facts about the movie so we can truly compare apples to apples.
This is not a Democrat vs. Republican movie. It is not a MM vs. GWB movie, and it is not an opinion based movie. It is a fictional movie easily proven to be such passed on as a documentary based on facts that do not exist. One more thing it is not an armwrestling...Baseball...Football movie either. It is a dangerous anti American movie.
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Post by gambit on Jul 20, 2004 10:41:34 GMT -5
See, that is exactly what I have been trying to express! Just a different viewpoint, but meaning the same.
WTG, Chris
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Post by simon on Jul 20, 2004 11:22:35 GMT -5
Wow did I miss a lot, man isn’t there any manner to insert your comments in between the posts, great stuff guys. Thank you Chris for the kudos, everyone on this topic has been insightful and intelligent, certainly opinions vary on this subject and typing posts like this causes some of the brilliance of these threads by you guys to be lost because it is hard to really convey everything you mean, well unless you type as long winded as I do. This discussion is better than those I have gotten into on the political message boards, on those if you stray from the sound bite, topical banter with a succinct, intelligent posting that causes people to defend their position they all disappear, I consistently kill the majority of the subjects I post on within those forums because people want to anonymously poke fun, not stand up and substantiate their beliefs. You guys are awesome.
I am going to cast my vote on some issues here.
MM’s film: Dangerous, money motivated and hurtful to our troops and our way of life, if he wanted to expose things he thought were relevant for the benefit of this country he should not have so carefully edited it, then presented it to our other governmental branches for review, or make it available for a nominal fee via DVD to those that want to see all sides of everything. Having said that he has the right to make whatever film he wants and the right to make money doing so. I really do not believe our government would have done much with it anyway, hell they have more tape of GWB stepping on his own Johnson then Moore could every come up with. To me it comes off like one long mudslinging political commercial right out of the movie “Head of State”.
Our action in Iraq/Afghanistan: I am glad a Republican was in office at the time because a Dem would not have reacted so forcefully in my opinion. No I do not care about the WOMD, a picture of Hussein holding a bottle rocket along with his past history is enough for me to believe we needed to handle him. Now I would not have handled it in the manner our present administration did, I think they used these actions in a very self serving manner when there were other options of force.
All recent presidents get a very raw deal because the media loves to feed off of them, if these people had to walk in the presidents shoes for a while, living under such intense scrutiny while you perform an extremely overwhelming and challenging task, they might not be so persistent on tearing at him and if we had to we might not be so interested in hearing about it every little thing that happens.
When our leaders learn to discern what is good for the country from what is good for their political careers, they might find that doing what is right for the country will also turn out to be good for their political careers, maybe not, but the last time I checked we were putting these people in office to properly run this country not to find a way to a life long career path or even greater wealth or notoriety. I do not care about their political or personal careers I expect them to run this country in a manner that this great nation deserves.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 20, 2004 11:28:42 GMT -5
Gary, Plus if mm based his " documentary " on the facts for which he says are the basis for which he made this "documentary ", he then wouldn't have. It is truly an anti Bush ( which is fine with me ) AND an anti republican ( which is fine with me ) " documentary " which was made out of pure hate and envy that the "democrats " have no control over this great Country of ours, for now...THANK GOD!!!!!!! Chris and Allen are right.
Fuel for thought: Why didn't he, mm, make a " documentary " ripping clinton for going into Yugoslavia and going after Milsovich ( spelling ? ) without U.N. approval, OR congressional approval? All because he took the word of the KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army ), a group which the year before was listed on our terrorist list as a terrorist organiztion along with all the other terrorists groups around the world. Who we then supplied with money and arms to fight Milo ( I know quite a few Albanians from where I live who went over there to fight along side of the KLA ) by us.That there were mass murders and mass graves from the otracities that were commited against the Albanians by Milo, in that region of Yugoslavia.BTW no mass graves were ever found!!! Also they, clinton never told anyone why Milo did what he did. It was because the Albanians were trying to take over a region of Yugoslavia and form their own state. The region is an extremely religous region for the Yugoslavians. When the Government of Albanian collapsed because of a ponsie scheme, many Albanians fled. Some went to Italy. Some went North. They settled in that region of Yugoslavia. The Yugoslavians should have did what the Italians did: Gave them each $40 and put them back on their boats and sent them back across the Adriatic Sea back to Albania. Then they wouldn't have had the problem they did... Its like if the illegal Mexicans living in Texas or California decided they wanted to take that state back for themselves. What would us Americans do?....... So no mass graves found, no u.n. or Congressional apporoval, took the word of a terrorist organization, bombed the Chinese embassy, threw Milo out of office, brought him up on charges. U.S. troops still there. BUT no screaming from mm or others on the left....WHY?.... BTW... who was in charge of this little MESS uh WAR? Oh yeah, Wesley Clark, who clinton relieved him of his command. .Bombing a aspirin factory on the same day as being impeached. Claiming it was retaliation for the Embassy bombimgs in Africa. BUT no screaming from the left. WHY?
2 more little tidbits:#1: The Albanians that fled Yugoslavia settled in refugee camps in Macadonia. The Albanians are now trying to establish a state of there own in that Country now.
#2; Why weren't mm and the other libs screaming at clinton and the u.n for not helping the 800,00 Rowadans who died in their little civil war,ethnic cleansing? Who advised clinton not to go in and help? wesley clark, and madeline albright! Thats who!!!!!!
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Post by Gary Roberts on Jul 20, 2004 11:40:26 GMT -5
I should have stayed out of this debate. I just don't know enough but...
my movie would not put Americans lives at risk. Increase the competition level maybe.. but no.
Just how many terrorists are watching MM's movie anyway? In the latest poll in the media. (There I go.. getting my facts from the media again) Most Americans now believe that we are in more danger than before.
I almost feel as if we have stirred up a bees nest over there. It is kind of unfair to debate putting Americans lives at risk while discussing MM's movie without discussing at the same time...what our country has done to put Americans lives at risk? I don't have a set opinion on that subject but as a person wanting to know more about a subject...if I am going to give weight to your comments discussing "americans lives at risk". I would want you to give me some light on the subject.
Before I deem MM a traitor, compare and contrast what he has done in terms of "americans lives in danger" compared to what else is going on in the world.
I can't help but think of this possibly real scenario...an innocent brother being killed in the bombing. The living brother knew nothing of terrorism before the war. He was concentrating on just making a living in Iraq. Now he has nothing. His home has been destroyed. His brother "murdered" in his eyes. He now focuses his energy on one thing, "REVENGE". "KILL AMERICANS" is now his only thought. He redevotes his life to a cause.
HE IS NOW A TERRORIST FOR LIFE.
This frightens me more than MM's movie insiting terrorism.
gary
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Post by Gary Roberts on Jul 20, 2004 11:59:36 GMT -5
Binnie...HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL THIS STUFF? How do you guys find the time to work (make a living), and train for pulling, and BECOME SO POLITICALLY EDUCATED ON WORLD ISSUES!!!
It truly is amazing!!
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 20, 2004 12:06:31 GMT -5
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 20, 2004 12:50:24 GMT -5
Well Gary you say ( or should i say the media ) that our country has put us at risk. Do you really believe that? It all depends on how you look at it and how far you want to go back. It starts with our support for an Israel state. Thats another issue. Although I support Isreal. BUT and there is a big BUT, it goes to the Koran that states anyone who doesn't believe in the Koran is subjected to JIHAD. So anyone who disagrees or doesn't believe is subjected to a holy war. FAIR?
Now if you talking about this mess we are in, lets see: Who declared war on whom? Barricks bombing in lebanon. 1993 Twin Tower bombings. Tower bombing in Saudi Arabia, The U.S.S. Cole bombing, The Embassy bombings in Africa, The Klinghoffer killing on the Italian liner in the 80s. These are just a few examples of terrorist actions BEFORE 911. So this JIHAD was brought to our shores starting in 1993. THEY came to us. Now we have gone to them.
Gary, I sat on my hill here in N.Y. and watched the towers fall! I live right on the Hudson River!!!!!!
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Post by Gary Roberts on Jul 20, 2004 13:02:45 GMT -5
Well said christian...
...my point was only this...before we cast MM as a traitor lets put in perspective what else is going on in the world...
AND the facts that you have brought to the table even further show just how F'd up things are over there and to me it is a lose lose situation. Something had to be done (I guess) but we will never no just exactly what was the right thing to do. We can't go back.
I just can't imagine what it had to have been like to be living in the NY area during that time and seeing what you did. AWFUL.
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 20, 2004 13:17:52 GMT -5
No we don't know. BUT we and the rest of the world are in it, and will be for a VERY long time. Look how long its been going on in Europe and Asia. The right thing to do to bullies ( and thats what terrorists are ) is to punch them right in the nose! You give a bully an inch, they take a foot etc, etc. Just look at Isreal, Saudi Arabia,etc etc......
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Post by gambit on Jul 20, 2004 22:41:05 GMT -5
... Most Americans now believe that we are in more danger than before. I almost feel as if we have stirred up a bees nest over there. It is kind of unfair to debate putting Americans lives at risk while discussing MM's movie without discussing at the same time...what our country has done to put Americans lives at risk? I can't help but think of this possibly real scenario...an innocent brother being killed in the bombing. The living brother knew nothing of terrorism before the war. He was concentrating on just making a living in Iraq. Now he has nothing. His home has been destroyed. His brother "murdered" in his eyes. He now focuses his energy on one thing, "REVENGE". "KILL AMERICANS" is now his only thought. He redevotes his life to a cause. We are certainly in more danger, from our own people. Even though they have the right to express what they want, it is people like MM that keep that spear of hate sharp. I understand your concern about "starting" something overseas, but am I wrong when I say, DIDN'T THEY START THIS FIRST? Take the list Christian described in detail. How long are we to take an ass-whipping before taking up for ourselves? We are so quick to validate bailing other countries out of chaos (civil wars, ethnic cleansing, humanitarian need) with no appreciation, but when we do what is ultimately right - take up for ourselves - we (us, our president, old ladies with rolling pins and spittoons) are then ridiculed as barbarians. Heartless war mongers for the taste of cannon smoke on our tongues. You see...it is like a nerdy child (the USA) in school, he gets picked on everyday. He is different from all the other children at school, but he is something that the other children are not; successfull. He strives to succeed in everything he does. He is expected to let others cheat off of his paper during class, then get spitballs in the eye during recess. Now, this child has taken this for years and years. Resentment is building . Tension is building to explosive measures. Basically...he's had enough. When the bullies (terrorist) gets bored and starts their "bullying" on this kid the nerd unleashes. He pops the punks in their noses (as Christian so eloquently put it), rendering the bullies dumbfounded and crying home to mamma. Now, the nerd is looked upon as a menace to society and himself, has to undergo therapy and anger management, expelled from school and looked at as a thug; an embarrassment. His own neighborhood (the U.S.A.) sees him as a troublemaker because this wasn't like him to act in such a way. They try to kick him out of the neighborhood so the bullies won't come back and beat them up. Treachery. (Michael Moore) When are we going to show how we really feel and what we really need to do? I say hog-tie and gag MM, and the likes, and let our men and women do what they NEED to do and come back home. Stop sitting them out in the open getting hit by those deadly spitballs. Political correctness cannot have a strong foothold when it comes to dealing with people like these insurgents. When our own country bashes our own leader, what does that say to the world about our loyalty to unity? Zilch... This has definitely been a good thread and I think it has shown the trueness of our allegiance. I am proud to be the terrorist's enemy. [glow=red,2,300]Go Troops!!![/glow] |
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Post by Duke Sarkisian on Jul 21, 2004 7:18:24 GMT -5
when our own country bashes our leader,what does that say...it says to me we have the rite to say things about our leaders without fear of getting shot in the face for it...as for following our leader no matter what he says or does,would be following like sheep...if you follow blindly like sheep...you will ultimately be sheared like sheep...thats whats great about this country..you have the rite to disagree and not follow blindly...as for my take on bush and iraq...' YOU TRIED TO KILL MY DADDY, NOW I`M GONNA GIT YOU...IT`S CALLED TEXAS JUSTICE"...yes, saddam is bad...so why not take out everyone else on the planet who`s bad to their people..or pose a threat...n.korea??next...  |
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Post by CHRISTIAN BINNIE on Jul 21, 2004 10:29:34 GMT -5
Worse then mm, is hillary and ted " the drunken killer " kennedy, who go on arab run al-jazeera and other arab Country t.v. stations (Hillary on a lebanonese t.v. station ) and that other " wonderful, liberal " British station the B.B.C. and bash not only Bush but also our foreign policies. THATS WORSE.! You just don't do that during war. Oh yeah, its election time. All is fair game. Poor libs trying to get back the power they lost...
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