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Ghosts
Feb 4, 2005 19:41:58 GMT -5
Post by simon on Feb 4, 2005 19:41:58 GMT -5
Make sure you copy this down Ryan because I may be agreeing with you here.
If it is a religions belief that all mankind are born in sin without a chance to shed yourself of it, then there really seems to be no logical manner in which Mary is the exception.
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Ghosts
Feb 4, 2005 21:47:14 GMT -5
Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 4, 2005 21:47:14 GMT -5
Ryan, Though your answers are loooong, that does not make them right. There is something to be said about brevity, so I will use that as a guide.
As for Scripture alone: RT - The apostles stood firmly on the spriptures ALONE, please give me one reference where they relyied on anything else. 1) 2 Thess 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. 2) 2 Thess 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. 3) Jn 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written. 4) 2 Timothy 1:13 Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus 5) Rom 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. Amazing that you find a few quotes to take out of context to try and make a point. These are only the first few that I grabbed. I have bunches. I don't need to address this again as it more than proves the point. The New Testament Canon was not compiled until more than 300 years after Our Lord ascended into heaven. What did St. Peter and the other apostles use to teach the early christians about doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness? They used what they were taught by the Lord. They handed on those teachings by word of mouth. You said faith alone, Scripture CLEARLY states otherwise. (BTW, regarding this statement "The apostles stood firmly on the spriptures ALONE, please give me one reference where they relyied on anything else." Uh, the apostles never had the scriptures. They were all dead by the time the Bible was put together! RT - If you dont see that this is clear. Then we must end this conversation if possible. WM - It's as clear as day when you read ALL of the scripture and not just the parts you want for your opinion. Consider it ended.
Mary born of a virgin: Never said that. Anne, the mother of Mary was not without sin. Mary was born without original sin. So God can build the universe and all life in 6 days, but you find Him to be incapable of keeping the Mother of Jesus without original sin. Interesting. I don't subscribe to such a limited God....
RT - ...it is of the DEVIL. I always get a kick out out of your dramatics :-)
RT - Simon your nuetral perspective is welcomed. I would like for you to comment from the perspective if there be a God and this is his word. What do these scriptures say? WM - Hey now, don't get that trouble maker involved ;-) j/k, your thoughts are always welcome!
RT - Why did Joseph consider to divorce her for fear of making her a public example? Wouldnt he have known that she was to give birth to christ as a virgin? Wouldnt she have known? Why would the angel have to have had this meeting? WM - Let's see, maybe Joseph would have been confused having not heard from Gabriel (you know, one of those angels that don't exist!)
Once again Ryan, I will let you have the last word as long as you do so without taking a parting shot. I can easiyl agree to disagree. No problem here. My only problem is and has been your spewing untruths about the Catholic faith. I am not looking to argue with you about every facet of the bible. I will if I have to, but it is not my goal. I am not looking to convert you to Catholocism. Our Savior is the same. I can respect that you are as convinced that your road to Jesus is as right as I feel my road is. Right now my main concern is Mr. Binnie reaching through my phone line and strangling me!
Consider this thread over as far as I am concerned. I have made my point clearly and there really isn't anything left to say.
God Bless, Bill Maenza PS: Mike, I hope this answered your question also.
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Ghosts
Feb 4, 2005 22:29:48 GMT -5
Post by Mike West on Feb 4, 2005 22:29:48 GMT -5
Bill, sorry, but that still didn't answer my orginal question, the question was where in the scriptures ( Bible, Word of God, KJV ) does it say that Mary was without sin or 'original sin'. As far as the whole "scripture alone" deal I don't even know who or when that was brought up, I personally don't care what is written in any other book but the Bible. I'll ask this question to you, because it really confused me at the time, I once did a drywall job in a small catholic church, redid the entire sanctuary, the guys from the church that were there doing other odd jobs would sit inside the church and drink beer while working ( it was HOT outside ), but at lunch time they would sit outside to eat their lunch, because it wasn't right to eat in the church. Is there some rule about that? Also, when I would sit and talk with the catholic guys that I worked with for years on the railroad, they were constantly taking the Lord's name in vain, but when I would say something about mother Mary ( like she was simple the mother of Jesus ) or if the Pope didn't have Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour he would go to hell, they wanting to kill me for that ? Just seems many catholics I've met and known all feel the same way, like they have more respect for Mary and the Pope than Jesus Christ himself, am I wrong ? Just curious Mike
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Ghosts
Feb 4, 2005 23:13:48 GMT -5
Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 4, 2005 23:13:48 GMT -5
Im sorry Bill, from what i gather we do not serve the same Jesus. My Jesus was born of a virgin. The Jesus whos mother was born with sin. ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. you still have not proven to me at al that mary is anything more than the mother of Jesus. She is Not the redemptrist. This would imply that she is a co-redeemer. Also imply that she redeems us or helps redeem us. Also imply that Christ and him crucified wasnt enough. To pray to her and ask her intercession, are acts of worship, becuase she died she is not to be prayed to nor is the interecessor between us and Jesus. She is in Heaven and i dont believe she hears anyones prayers. If Mary is the intercessor between us and Jesus then what stands between us and the father is Mary and Jesus but the bible says that Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.
1 Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
SIMON SAYS ;D
If it is a religions belief that all mankind are born in sin without a chance to shed yourself of it, then there really seems to be no logical manner in which Mary is the exception.
I know this sounds offensive and i dont meant to be but this is truth. if i may boldly say so.
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 6:42:28 GMT -5
Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 5, 2005 6:42:28 GMT -5
MW - Bill, sorry, but that still didn't answer my orginal question, the question was where in the scriptures ( Bible, Word of God, KJV ) does it say that Mary was without sin or 'original sin'. As far as the whole "scripture alone" deal I don't even know who or when that was brought up, I personally don't care what is written in any other book but the Bible. WM - Mike, the reason this was brought up (by me) is that no where in the bible (listen close Ryan) does it say BY SCRIPTURE ALONE. In my last post to Ryan I gave 4 or 5 different quotes that proved that.
As for the guys with food and drink: That's reall just funny as can be. Make no mistake, there are as many hypocrites in the Catholic faith as there are in any other faith. Can't really explain why people would take more offense to words against Mary or the Pope than they would against Jesus. Makes no sense to me at all.
Ryan, So now I believe in a different Jesus? Dang, all along I thought there was only one. Like I have said before, your choice of words is inaccurate. You continue to use words that you either like to say or spell, but not the words that I use. I understand that you learned a new word in school today (redemptrist), congratulations. However, you will not find a Catholic who uses that word for Mary. Just you. Maybe you lack of knowledge and understanding of the Catholic fatih has clouded your views. You don't get the entire concept of Mary who was a virgin even though her mother was not. I didn't think it was something you could grasp yet. ou cast the "ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE" term out all of the time as though it carries any weight. It should "ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE and the ALL KNOWING RYAN THAMES". Get over your self.
As for Mary being the intercessor: You are (once again) the only one who says that. I have explained the Catholic point of view very clearly. As usual, you clutch on to your one of out of context quotes to try and manipulate it. You cling to inaccurate words that show that you either 1) Don't read the answers before forming your reply 2) Don't understand the answers 3) Can not come to grips that you might actually (gasp) be wrong.
As for the snippet from Simon regarding logic, you Ryan once again have done what you always do, take the part that suits you. I am not sure which of Simon's post said it, but I know that he said something to the effect of God (or suprnatural force, science or something) does not always follow logic.
We are not going to agree here Ryan. Before this starts getting ugly and personal, we had better end. No more parting shots. I don't mean to be offensive and I am pretty sure you don't either.
Let's let it go and move on. Bill
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 7:15:09 GMT -5
Post by Mike West on Feb 5, 2005 7:15:09 GMT -5
Bill, thanks for your reply. I don't believe Ryan is questioning if Mary was a virgin, we know she was from the scriptures, the question was about her being without sin
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 12:06:27 GMT -5
Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 5, 2005 12:06:27 GMT -5
and her mother being a virgin.
Bill there is a school in baton rouge, A catholic school named REDIMTRIST
So now I believe in a different Jesus? Dang, all along I thought there was only one.
2 Corinthians 11 3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 5. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. 6. But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. 7. Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
Did i misqoute or manipulate this one?
your right lets let it end.
God Bless, Ryan
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 14:04:58 GMT -5
Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 5, 2005 14:04:58 GMT -5
Ryan for the 10th time, read it slow now. Mary's mother (Anne) was not a virgin. You always manage to "let it end" once you have your final say. So fine go ahead. As far as I am concerned, my conversation with you on this over.
Mike, I believe that all of the early Christian denominations held the same belief as the Catholic teachings. I can look up Luther's teachings as well if it will help. Ryan - this part of the conversation is Mike and myself. No need for commentary. I am afraid that if you do, it will never end.
God Bless both, Bill
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 14:06:29 GMT -5
Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 5, 2005 14:06:29 GMT -5
Im sorry bill i thought you said mary was born of a virgin. When i think of the term immaculate conception, Im thinking of Jesus being born without sin becuase he was born of a virgin. I understand now im so sorry this arguement couldve been totally avoided. All though i still dont think she was born without sin. Again i apologize for my mistunderstanding of you termonology. I spent alot of time on that post to prove marys mother wasnt a virgin, now i feel dumb. we werent even arguing about that.
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 15:27:56 GMT -5
Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 5, 2005 15:27:56 GMT -5
Ryan, Thank you. I do hope we can continue to have our spirited conversations! Again, please accept my apologies from earlier postings. I do get snippy sometimes ;-).
God Bless, Bill
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 15:46:04 GMT -5
Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 5, 2005 15:46:04 GMT -5
Me to. ;D Its ok it wouldnt be any fun otherwise. Though we need to be careful not get in the flesh. To be honest, The other night i felt satan creeping in with pride, i had to rebuke that and repent. I was so proud that i proved marys mother wasnt a virgin. But that wasnt even the arguement. Proverbs 8: 13. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. Though may i ask, If it were so easy to create mary without sin the way you say. Why couldnt God have created Jesus that way? Granted he would still have to be born of a virgin inorder to be the son of God. Why during this conception couldnt God have created Jesus without the sin of Mary. What is the need for mary to have been without sin? I mentioned before i found a video, its really interesting you oughta check it out. Its not pro protestant and anti catholic its simply pro-Jesus. Its awesome. But in this video the man found the ark of the covenant. He found it directly under where christ was crucified. Explaining how the blood of Christ poured through the ground to be placed on the mercy seat of the ark to fulfill the sacrificial law. This is biblicaly correct, and makes perfect sense. So he claims he took a sample of the blood stains from the rocks of the earth and/or the the ark, i cant remember. He says he had the blood tested and it had 23x chromosomes and 1 y chromosome, indicating that the person whos blood this was had no earthly father. he says he has the testing of the blood on film but i havent got to see it yet. wyattmuseum.com/ark-of-the-covenant-07.htm
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 16:59:45 GMT -5
Post by Bill Maenza on Feb 5, 2005 16:59:45 GMT -5
Ryan, RT - Why couldnt God have created Jesus that way? Why during this conception couldnt God have created Jesus without the sin of Mary. WM - I really don't know the answer. He could have, but He decided not to.
RT - Jesus without the sin of Mary. What is the need for mary to have been without sin? WM - I honestly will have to research that. I remeber hearing the answer, but I just can't remember how it was explained to me.
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Ghosts
Feb 5, 2005 17:35:28 GMT -5
Post by Ryan Thames on Feb 5, 2005 17:35:28 GMT -5
I would assume that logical thinking biblical and religous shcolars of that day. Was just discussin and trying to figure that out, and that was the only conclusion they could come up with at the time. Not having they technology to see that the mother and child do not share the same blood in the womb. I dont blame them for coming up with this. Although it would explain why so much emphasis is on Mary. And i think that is the down side of that. I dont knock anyone if they want to come up with conclusions like this but they do have to line up with the word of God. Most baptist dont believe in the baptism of the holy spirit the same way a pentacostal does. Thats ok if they disagree. They misout on it though. But it will not cost them there salvation. Becuase, praise God, our salvation is not based on how much of the word of God we know or understand. Our faith does however come from the Word of God. Its not how much of it we know but what we know of it. All though the bible says in Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. also in 2 Timothy 3: 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. If you wanna think Mary was without sin thats ok to. It dont line up with the word of God though. And the problem comes in when and if you put too much emphasis on Mary. You say you dont and i pray that you dont, that is dangerous. Personally I think to call her the redemtrist is kinda blasphemous, if i may use that word to describe it. You may not but the catholic churchs here in louisiana do. As i stated before there is a catholic high school here named redemtrist high. Im glad this conversation has cooled down abit
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