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Post by enginterzi on Aug 2, 2010 4:01:15 GMT -5
PAUL VS LAW OF GOD
Paul said;
Galatians "…for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." 2:16
Moses said;
"Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25
Paul said;
Galatians "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident…"3:11
Jesus said;
Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul said;
"Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. 5:2-4
GOD said;
[9] Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. [10] This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. [11] You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. [12] For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring. [13] Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. [14] Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Paul said;
"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law…" 3:13
David said;
Psalm 119:113 I hate double-minded men, but I love your law.
David said;
Psalm 119:160 All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
James said;
JAMES 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Proverbs 28:4
Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law resist them.
Isaiah 24:5
The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 2, 2010 7:19:26 GMT -5
Paul vs James (brother and disciple of Jesus Christ); " Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more. by saying "I AM MORE" Paul witnesses that people who disagreed with him are the servants of Jesus,but we do not know if those servants of Jesus would have witnessed Paul to be a servant of Jesus or not.one thing for sure they were the TRUE (not self claimed) DISCIPLES OF JESUS.he was trying to prove that he was not any less than the true disciples of Jesus,who were filled with Holy Spirit. James; "[T]he Tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly Evil, full of deadly poison .... Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of a good conversation his works, with the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your heart, do not boast and lie against the Truth," (James 2:26-3:14). "[T]he truth of Christ is in me, NO MAN SHALL STOP ME OF THIS BOASTING .... The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed for evermore, knows I'm not lying," (2 Corinthians 11:10-31). " I say the truth in Christ, and do not lie," (Romans 9:1). " I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not," (1 Timothy 2:7). " Before God, I do not lie," (Galatians 1:20). Paul was teaching a different Gospel than the Gospel that true disciples of Jesus was teaching; Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel Galatians 1-8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accurse disagreement is confessed by a one sided story of Paul; Galatians 2:11-21 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ( why did people such as the Apostle James still believe that the law regarding food should still be applied? If Jesus came to replace the law, then why are they still following the law?did Jesus or Holy Spirit not inform them?) 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. ( so, Peter, James and Barnabas are wrong?) Paul disagreed with all Jewish Christians including Peter and Barnabas. We only have Paul's side of the story but Peter's recollection of this story is not given to us in the New Testament. Acts 4:31 31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly. If Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit then why is Paul calling Peter a hypocrite for eating with the Gentiles and then when people came from James he got up. James is Jesus' half brother, he lived and stayed with Jesus. Galatians 3:1-3 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish?Obviously we have people that are disagreeing with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4-5 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." so there was a Jesus who was preached differently,there was a Gospel which was different than what Paul wrote about and what we understand from Paul's words (since he compares himself with the Apostles of Jesus) that this different Jesus and Gospel were preached by the Apostles of Jesus Christ. Matthew 7-21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Paul came preaching, by his own admission, another gospel promoting lawlesness. interesting! Philippians 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, Jesus says; " DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER; for ONE IS YOUR FATHER, HE who is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9) Paul says; " For I BECAME YOUR FATHER" (1 Corinthians 4:15) Paul says; " If anyone else thinks he has confidence in the flesh I ('Paul')MORE SO... concerning THE RIGHTOUSNESS which is in THE LAW, I ('PAUL')AM BLAMELESS " ( Phil 3:6 ). Jesus says; " NOT ONE OF YOU KEEPS THE LAW " (John 7:19). " But when SAUL had come to Jerusalem HE tried to join the disciples; but they were ALL AFRAID OF HIM AND DID NOT BELIEVE THAT HE WAS A DISCIPLE " (Acts 9:26). it sounds like he was left alone by the TRUE disciples; " This you know that ALL THOSE IN ASIA HAVE TURNED AWAY FROM ME " was he was confussed about circumcision? acts 16-3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. (2 Tim. 1:15). " Indeed I PAUL say to you that IF ANYONE BECOME CIRCUMCISED Christ will profit you nothing " (Gal. 5:2). self witnessing of Paul..he claimed that a gospel was given to him by Jesus but somehow TRUE disciples of Jesus (who were taught by living Jesus and were full of Holy Spirit, disagreed with him); "I certify to you, brothers, that THE GOSPEL WHICH WAS PREACHED BY ME IS NOT MAN'S GOSPEL, for I DID NOT RECEIVE IT FROM MAN, NOR WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT IT CAME THROUGH A REVELATION of Jesus Christ. for sure the argument was very clear and James (brother of Jesus) mentioned it; James; "If you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your heart, do not boast and lie against the Truth. THIS IS NOT THE WISDOM THAT COMES DOWN FROM ABOVE, but earthly, MAN MADE, DEMONIC ... He who speaks against his brother and who judges his brother speaks against the Law and judges the Law. But if you judge the Law, YOU ARE NOT A DOER OF THE LAW, but a judge," (Epistle of James 3:5-4:11). Paul; "Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS OF THE LAW, but by faith in Jesus Christ...we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, AND NOT BY WORKS OF THE LAW, FOR BY WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO ONE BE JUSTIFIED ... Even Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as Righteousness," (Galatians 1:11-3:6). James answers Paul about faith being complete by works(disciple and brother of James also explains the "faith" by believing "in one GOD"); 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
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Post by Karen Bean on Aug 2, 2010 9:50:14 GMT -5
Engin you have not disrespected anyone. That wasn't my point. I was making the point that "some folks" who claim to be Christians sure snap like a pitbull at me to shut me up. Even without reading the thread. It's nothing new to me. I've gotten that response from many "Christians" along my path. Christians have a joy in our hearts and have a need and desire to share the gospel. With anyone and everyone. Then there are folks who feel the need to silence Christians. As if the gospel is suppose to be a hush hush story. Ryan, no one snapped at you like a pit bull. In this instance, all I was asking basically was why, when Rick asked Engin a question, did you feel the need to respond telling him he was wrong? As an example - Engin posted his thoughts and you responded telling him his interpretation was wrong. Why is his interpretation wrong and your interpretation right? Considering they are both interpretations. 18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure Alright one at a time...... You are having a misunderstanding of this scripture. I assume your trying to show Christ denying that he is God or good right? No where in this passage is he doing this. He asked him why do you call me good. It was to give the ruler the opportunity to acknowledge him as God. He then gave him a list of dos and don'ts The man said to Jesus I have kept them since I was a boy. Which is likely not true. But Jesus made the point that all the dos and don'ts or (religious acts) don't do a thing for you if you haven't fully surrendered your life to him. You may have all the best intentions at heart - and I don't doubt that - but you could take lead from Rick Laton and John Parton as examples. Both of these men express themselves regarding their faith and never are they disrespectful toward others, nor do they ever tell another that their belief/faith is wrong. Rick Laton's post on another thread is priceless and says it all: "but i feel against Christians trying to talk against other religions and acting smart and questioning other people's beliefs.." Dixon, if I am right and a particular religion in not of God and that person will end up in hell, it is in their best interest that I let them know that. I must do it with a good attitude and explain it, but my God says that I MUST tell them how I feel. It seems you have somewhat of a communication problem Ryan. I was making the point that "some folks" who claim to be Christians sure snap like a pitbull at me to shut me up. Even without reading the thread. It's nothing new to me. I've gotten that response from many "Christians" along my path. Obviously you must be going about it in a manner that people find distasteful. As a suggestion: maybe you could start by refraining from the name calling, and the need to tell people how wrong they are and how right you are. I think your devotion/belief is commendable and obviously it's something you want others to feel and believe as well. Just based on your own words, you need to try to find a better way of deliverance.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Aug 2, 2010 10:27:59 GMT -5
Geez Ryan, is that a very Christian way to start dialog? Maybe you and Karen do not see eye-to-eye on all matters, but that was a little harsh. Bill Now it's open discussion buttmunch
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Post by Alper Cosar on Aug 2, 2010 10:51:19 GMT -5
Geez Ryan, is that a very Christian way to start dialog? Maybe you and Karen do not see eye-to-eye on all matters, but that was a little harsh. Bill Now it's open discussion buttmunch 100% agreed.... Respect comes first!
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 2, 2010 12:02:48 GMT -5
I was totally being playful with her. Was not meant to be disrespectful.
I call my wife buttmunch all the time. Not being disrespectful.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 2, 2010 12:05:13 GMT -5
Karen,
You have met me in person several times. Have you ever, ever seen me be disrespectful or offensive to anyone for any reason?
From what I gathered from Ricks comments in that quote his post seemed very supportive of my perspective of the need for sharing the gospel as Christian.
I do not see where Rick and I disagree on that all.
I have alot of respect for both John Parton and Rick Laton.
I am not called to be John Parton or Rick laton.
I am called to be Ryan.
I am a follower of Christ. Not of John Parton or Rick Laton.
I love them both as brothers in Christ.
They are who they are. And I am who I am.
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Post by Robert Bishop on Aug 2, 2010 13:11:33 GMT -5
i really dont see any reason whatsoever why anyone needed to get pissed off and chime in against what was being said It looked to be a very reasonable conversation up to the point of Karen Not being critical of Karen-------i just dont see the point because this was one of the more civil conversations involving religion---------this is still a open board in which everyone has the right to his opinion.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Aug 2, 2010 13:37:06 GMT -5
Ryan, probably should have included a smiley face or a J/K. It came across as an attack. Hard to tell when it is serious or joking, but it came across - at least to me, as an offensive post. Bill BTW - Your wife should probably smack you! I was totally being playful with her. Was not meant to be disrespectful. I call my wife buttmunch all the time. Not being disrespectful.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 2, 2010 14:22:24 GMT -5
Galatians 2:11-21
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. ( why did people such as the Apostle James still believe that the law regarding food should still be applied? If Jesus came to replace the law, then why are they still following the law?did Jesus or Holy Spirit not inform them?) 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. (so, Peter, James and Barnabas are wrong?)
Paul disagreed with all Jewish Christians including Peter and Barnabas. We only have Paul's side of the story but Peter's recollection of this story is not given to us in the New Testament.
Jesus ate with sinners an harlots an talked an preached to everyone, he also said something to the effect that you have to walk as that person walks to understand them. Now wouldn't his saying over rule anything they say? Or I mean his actions would speak louder than their words?
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Post by John Parton on Aug 2, 2010 14:53:45 GMT -5
The writings of Paul support the law and the prophets, but also those things which were promised by God to Abraham 400 years before the law was given. And simply say the law did not change the promise of God. Peter did defend Paul, although he said his saying were hard to understand by those who wrestle in disobedience. I personally don't believe the problem is in the writings, but in the understanding of many about them. Sometimes people try to make things say what they want to believe rather than looking at the whole picture. As far as the deity of Jesus you know we disagree on that. He allowed people to worship him, something even no angel did. He said I and the Father are one, and again If you have seen me you have seen the Father. There is more than one part of me, yet it is still all me (except the plates and screws from my surgeries . I love having these discussions with you as I know you are a man who does his best to follow God a rare thing in our time. God willing I hope to see you at WAF. It is good for men to know about each other even if we don't agree, I know on this one thing we do that God will always be the one who is truly right
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 2, 2010 16:59:58 GMT -5
we Muslim,do not believe in the crucification of Jesus, because of the clear verses in our book;
And [on account of] their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Qur'an, 4:157)
They planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Qur'an, 3:54)
God raised him up to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:158)
but there are some other sources that support these verses;
The Apocalypse of Peter;
.....When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?...."
.....The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me....."
.....And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel,in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law.....
The (First) Apocalypse of James;
.......When James heard of his suffering and was much distressed, they awaited the sign of his coming. And he came after several days. And James was walking upon the mountain which is called "Gaugelan", with his disciples, who listened to him because they had been distressed, and he was [...] a comforter, saying, "This is [...] second [...]" Then the crowd dispersed, but James remained [...] prayer [...], as was his custom.
And the Lord appeared to him. Then he stopped (his) prayer and embraced him. He kissed him, saying, "Rabbi, I have found you! I have heard of your sufferings, which you endured. And I have been much distressed. My compassion you know. Therefore, on reflection, I was wishing that I would not see this people. They must be judged for these things that they have done. For these things that they have done are contrary to what is fitting."
The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them. But [...] the archons, [...] who has [...] but since it [...] angry with [...] The just [...] is his servant. Therefore your name is "James the Just". You see how you will become sober when you see me. And you stopped this prayer. Now since you are a just man of God, you have embraced me and kissed me. Truly I say to you that you have stirred up great anger and wrath against yourself. But (this has happened) so that these others might come to be...."
The Testimony of Truth;
"they do not know that they will destroy themselves. If the Father were to desire a human sacrifice, he would become vainglorious. "
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth;
"......And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. ...."
The teaching of the twelve apostles;
no single word about crucification or cross is mentioned.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 2, 2010 17:29:41 GMT -5
we Muslim,do not believe in the crucification of Jesus, because of the clear verses in our book; And [on account of] their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. (Qur'an, 4:157) They planned and God planned. But God is the best of planners. (Qur'an, 3:54) God raised him up to Himself. God is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 4:158) but there are some other sources that support these verses; The Apocalypse of Peter; ..... When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?...." ..... The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me....." ..... And he said to me, "Be strong, for you are the one to whom these mysteries have been given, to know them through revelation, that he whom they crucified is the first-born, and the home of demons, and the stony vessel,in which they dwell, of Elohim, of the cross, which is under the Law..... The (First) Apocalypse of James; ....... When James heard of his suffering and was much distressed, they awaited the sign of his coming. And he came after several days. And James was walking upon the mountain which is called "Gaugelan", with his disciples, who listened to him because they had been distressed, and he was [...] a comforter, saying, "This is [...] second [...]" Then the crowd dispersed, but James remained [...] prayer [...], as was his custom. And the Lord appeared to him. Then he stopped (his) prayer and embraced him. He kissed him, saying, "Rabbi, I have found you! I have heard of your sufferings, which you endured. And I have been much distressed. My compassion you know. Therefore, on reflection, I was wishing that I would not see this people. They must be judged for these things that they have done. For these things that they have done are contrary to what is fitting." The Lord said, " James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them. But [...] the archons, [...] who has [...] but since it [...] angry with [...] The just [...] is his servant. Therefore your name is "James the Just". You see how you will become sober when you see me. And you stopped this prayer. Now since you are a just man of God, you have embraced me and kissed me. Truly I say to you that you have stirred up great anger and wrath against yourself. But (this has happened) so that these others might come to be...." The Testimony of Truth; " they do not know that they will destroy themselves. If the Father were to desire a human sacrifice, he would become vainglorious. " The Second Treatise of the Great Seth; "......And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. ...." The teaching of the twelve apostles; no single word about crucification or cross is mentioned.Engin, The Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are jam packed with Jesus' Passion and Crucifixion. All your sources are either Muslim or from things not found in the Bible. Anything you quote that you think disproves Jesus' divinity is either a translation issue or it is something taken out of context. If you were a Christian scholar, you would know that. I give you credit for being a Muslim scholar. You absolutely know your faith. But I dare say, you don't really understand ours. And I do know that you have spent more time reading the Bible than most Christians. I give you credit for that also. But you spend way too much time reading from sources the ancient Church has deemed non canonical. There is no use in reading that stuff to a Christian. It is no more meaningful than the Quran to a Christian. It might be interesting, but we do not consider it the Word of God. There are a lot of beautiful things and advice in the Quran which you have shared with us. There is a lot of wisdom in the Quran also (again, that which you have shared with us) But a Christian believes that Jesus is God. Anything to the contrary is not the word of God. John, Chapter 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. verse 14: And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the father's only Son, full of grace and truth. verse 18: No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 2, 2010 17:54:53 GMT -5
Jesus ate with sinners an harlots an talked an preached to everyone, he also said something to the effect that you have to walk as that person walks to understand them. Now wouldn't his saying over rule anything they say? Or I mean his actions would speak louder than their words? Johnny, all i know is that according to the Gospels the disciples were prayed by Jesus to be one in GOD.again according to the Acts which is written by Luke who was a disciple of Paul,the disciples were full of holy spirit.also again according to the gospels Jesus says that he will send the holy spirit on his disciples.we are talking about the disciples who sat,ate,slept and were taught by Jesus! and also talking about someone who killed the Christians but later claimed to become a Christian by self verifying story about being taught by Jesus. we need to analise the authors of the New Testament to understand if Christians have been following the Christ or Paul's own ideas. The Gospel of Matthew: " The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008)" " As for the place where the gospel was composed, a plausible suggestion is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1009)" The Gospel of Mark: Since the Gospel of Mark contains mistakes concerning Galilean geography and customs, the author was not native to the Holy Land, as was the historical Peter. It has been argued that there is an impending sense of persecution in the gospel, and that this could indicate it being written to sustain the faith of a community under such a threat. As the main Christian persecution at that time was in Rome under Nero, this has been used to place the writing of the Gospel in Rome. Furthermore, it has been argued that the Latinized vocabulary employed in Mark (and in neither Matthew nor Luke) shows that the Gospel was written in Rome. wikipedia " Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading "According to Mark" in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose mother's house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)" " Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1488)" " Traditionally, the gospel is said to have been written shortly before A.D. 70 in Rome, at a time of impending persecution and when destruction loomed over Jerusalem. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)" " Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes [1], page 1528)" " This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1088)" The Book of 1 and 2 Peter (believed to be a Pauline literature) : "Some modern scholars on the basis of a number of features that they consider incompatible with Petrine authenticity, regard the letter as the work of a later Christian writer. Such features include the cultivated Greek in which it is written, difficult to attribute to a Galilean fisherman, together with its use of the Greek Septuagint translation when citing the Old Testament; the similarity in both thought and expression to the Pauline literature; and the allusions to widespread persecution of Christians, which did not occur until at least the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96). In this view the letter would date from the end of the first century or even the beginning of the second, when there is evidence for persecution of Christians in Asia Minor. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1348)" " Nevertheless, acceptance of 2 Peter into the New Testament canon met with great resistance in the early church. The oldest certain reference to it comes from Origen in the early third century. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1354)" " Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1354)" The Book of Acts (written by the disciple of Luke): " Although the author does not name himself, evidence outside the Scriptures and inferences from the book itself lead to the conclusion that the author was Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1643)" The Gospel of Luke: "The identification of Luke as the author is primarily based on the "we" passages in Acts (beginning in Acts 16:10), which indicate that Luke was associated with Paul in his ministry and wrote down the account of his activities. (The Amplified Bible, Page 1153)" " Although the author does not name himself, evidence outside the Scriptures and inferences from the book itself lead to the conclusion that the author was Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1643)" Luke 24:46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day" where in the Bible is written about resurrection on third day? " The author's name does not appear in the book, but much unmistakable evidence points to Luke. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1529)" " Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, (Luke 1:3)" Gospel of Luke was written by the disciple of Paul,who had never seen Jesus,by the investigations in first century. The Book of Hebrews: " The writer of this letter does not identify himself, but he was obviously well known to the original recipients. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1856)" The Gospel of John: " Many scholars of the past two centuries have denied that John wrote this book, partly because of their belief that the author fabricated many details such as the miracles and the discourses of Jesus. (The Holman Illustrated Study Bible, ISBN: 978-1-58640-275-4, Gospel of John, Page1540)" " Critical Analysis makes it difficult to accept the idea that the gospel as it now stands was written by one person. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" " Within the gospel itself there are also some inconsistencies. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" " To solve these problems, scholars have proposed various rearrangements that would produce a smoother order. However, most have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" " Other difficulties for any theory of eyewitness authorship of the gospel in its present form are presented by its highly developed theology and by certain elements of its literary style. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" " The gospel contains many details about Jesus not found in the synoptic gospels. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" " The final editing of the gospel and arrangement in its present form probably dates from between A.D. 90 and 100. Traditionally, Ephesus has been favored as the place of composition, though many support a location in Syria, perhaps the city of Antioch, while some have suggested other places, including Alexandria. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1136)" The Gospel of 1 John: ".... Unlike most NT letters, 1 John does not tell us who its author is. The earliest identification of him comes from the church fathers...(From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1904)" " The letter is difficult to date with precision....(From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1905)" The Book of Revelation: "The author of the book calls himself John, who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Terullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom. Indeed, vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the same persons responsible for the fourth gospel. (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1373)" "Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22:8)..... In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. He suggested that the author was a certain John the Presbyter, whose name appears elsewhere in ancient writings. Although many today follow Dionysius in his view of authorship, the external evidence seems overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view. (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1922)"
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 2, 2010 18:46:56 GMT -5
Engin, The Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are jam packed with Jesus' Passion and Crucifixion. All your sources are either Muslim or from things not found in the Bible. of course they are out of Bible because they were made to be out in Niceane Creed in 325 by Emperor Constantine.would they have allowed anything against what they have decided?but do you realise that even those 4 Gospels whose authors are unknown and accepted by the Christians authorities to be edited,are telling us different things about the crucification belief? please check the Comparison Chart: Biblical Accounts of the Resurrection www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/resurrection_accounts.htm Anything you quote that you think disproves Jesus' divinity is either a translation issue or it is something taken out of context. i believe the opposite way as the word "YEHOVA" is translated as "LORD" in the Gospels,while they also translated the word which meant "TEACHER", "MASTER" etc as "lord" for Jesus and you Christians call both GOD and Jesus "LORD" while Jesus has never been called "YEHOVA" in his life time.the same exact word that is used for Jesus is also used for Abraham in new testament but translated as "MASTER". anyways,time to sleep.
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