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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 2, 2010 21:23:54 GMT -5
Engin, The Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John are jam packed with Jesus' Passion and Crucifixion. All your sources are either Muslim or from things not found in the Bible. of course they are out of Bible because they were made to be out in Niceane Creed in 325 by Emperor Constantine.would they have allowed anything against what they have decided?but do you realise that even those 4 Gospels whose authors are unknown and accepted by the Christians authorities to be edited,are telling us different things about the crucification belief? please check the Comparison Chart: Biblical Accounts of the Resurrection www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/resurrection_accounts.htm Anything you quote that you think disproves Jesus' divinity is either a translation issue or it is something taken out of context. i believe the opposite way as the word "YEHOVA" is translated as "LORD" in the Gospels,while they also translated the word which meant "TEACHER", "MASTER" etc as "lord" for Jesus and you Christians call both GOD and Jesus "LORD" while Jesus has never been called "YEHOVA" in his life time.the same exact word that is used for Jesus is also used for Abraham in new testament but translated as "MASTER". anyways,time to sleep. First off Constantine did not become Christian until he was on his death bed. His mother was Christian and urged him to convert. While he was Emperor, he merely stopped the persecution of the Christians. The Nicene council was the top patriarchs at the time, the early church fathers, including the eastern churches. The time line shows "on the first day of the week" or "on the third day" The first day of the week is Sunday. The Crucifixion was Friday, the first day. Saturday was the second day. Sunday, the Resurrection, was the third day. "On the third day He rose again." I also need sleep...
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 1:52:19 GMT -5
First off Constantine did not become Christian until he was on his death bed. His mother was Christian and urged him to convert. While he was Emperor, he merely stopped the persecution of the Christians. him not being a Christian explains everything to me,then Roman Empire was influenced with the mythologic beliefs.just know one thing that till the Council meeting Christians did not have the New Testament that you are holding as one part,but they believed in so many different testimonies.so for you to deny the testimonies just because they are not part of the New Testament now,is the desicion of the council and the rest of the Gospels were prohibited and ordered to be burnt.not all of the patriarchs agreed with the desicion of the council and they either were exiled or murdered. VERY TRUE ! the persecution of the Christians did not stop at his time but those were Christians who believed in different testimony than the one that was decided for them at the council. A letter from Arius to the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia succinctly states the core beliefs of the Arians: Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. —Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, p. 41 Constantine burning Arian books, illustration from a compendium of canon law, ca. 825 A 4th-century miniature of the Council of Nicaea, which condemned Arius's teaching "Arius, who was born in Egypt in 256 A.D., was a parish priest in Alexandria. He had studied under St. Lucian of Antioch, the founder of the school of Antioch, who had earlier been condemned for holding that Christ was only a man; although he was later reconciled. He is called the "Father of Arianism" because " Arius and almost all the 4th-century Arian theologians were his students. Calling themselves Lucianists and Collucianists, they developed his adoptionist and subordinationist tendencies into a full heresy." [Harkins 1967, 1057, 1058] " Archbishop Dmitri of the Orthodox Church in America has identified Islam as the largest descendant of Arianism today. There is some superficial similarity in Islam's teaching that Jesus was a great prophet, but very distinct from God, although Islam sees Jesus as a human messenger of God without the divine properties that Arianism attributes to the Christ. Islam sees itself as a continuation of the Jewish and Christian traditions and reveres many of the same prophets. " "Arianism was a Christological view held by followers of Arius in the early Christian Church, claiming that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not of the same fundamental essence, seeing the Son as a pre-existent divine being, created by the Father (and subsequently inferior to Him.) Some historical records indicate that Arius believed, quite simply, that Jesus was an important prophet, but also a man like other men. The First Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) condemned Arianism, after much controversy, and declared it heretical; similar views, and in some cases revival of the name, have recurred. It is also indicated that many of the Arian Christians became Muslims, although Islam itself rejects the Arian Christology. Constantine is said to have renounced trinitarianism in favor of Arianism on his death bed. Arius was reported to have been poisoned. " The time line shows "on the first day of the week" or "on the third day" The first day of the week is Sunday. The Crucifixion was Friday, the first day. Saturday was the second day. Sunday, the Resurrection, was the third day. "On the third day He rose again." please look at that chart more carefully and you will see much more than you mentioned.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 3, 2010 13:47:20 GMT -5
Engin you do realize some of those Bible translations you mentioned had homosexuals on the translation committee now I am not saying that Gay people are horrible but, God condemns the practice, so why would I trust something translated by them? I try to read the older versions of the Bible.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 3, 2010 13:50:40 GMT -5
I never ever read NAB version of NIV mostly. Reason being in the NIV there is a verse that says something to the effect of by Gods word the world was formed, but in the KVJ it says by Gods word we know that worlds(plural) were formed. The verse is in ROmans chapter 11 I believe now thats not word for word but it doesn't match up an that completely changes what that verse says when you make it not plural. It says in the Bible not one words is supposed to be changed.
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Post by Michael Wells on Aug 3, 2010 14:19:37 GMT -5
I've found that, the newer the version, the more it's twisted. I've seen many verses taken out of the NIV. I WISH I knew how to read Hebrew.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 14:52:53 GMT -5
Engin you do realize some of those Bible translations you mentioned had homosexuals on the translation committee now I am not saying that Gay people are horrible but, God condemns the practice, so why would I trust something translated by them? I try to read the older versions of the Bible. no i did not know that.i am an ignorant about the personal lives of translation companies.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 15:23:44 GMT -5
First off Constantine did not become Christian until he was on his death bed. His mother was Christian and urged him to convert. While he was Emperor, he merely stopped the persecution of the Christians. him not being a Christian explains everything to me,then Roman Empire was influenced with the mythologic beliefs.just know one thing that till the Council meeting Christians did not have the New Testament that you are holding as one part,but they believed in so many different testimonies.so for you to deny the testimonies just because they are not part of the New Testament now,is the desicion of the council and the rest of the Gospels were prohibited and ordered to be burnt.not all of the patriarchs agreed with the desicion of the council and they either were exiled or murdered. VERY TRUE ! the persecution of the Christians did not stop at his time but those were Christians who believed in different testimony than the one that was decided for them at the council. A letter from Arius to the Arian Eusebius of Nicomedia succinctly states the core beliefs of the Arians: Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that he is a production, others that he is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though the heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten, nor in any way part of the unbegotten; and that he does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by his own will and counsel he has subsisted before time and before ages as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before he was begotten, or created, or purposed, or established, he was not. For he was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. —Peters, Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, p. 41 Constantine burning Arian books, illustration from a compendium of canon law, ca. 825 A 4th-century miniature of the Council of Nicaea, which condemned Arius's teaching "Arius, who was born in Egypt in 256 A.D., was a parish priest in Alexandria. He had studied under St. Lucian of Antioch, the founder of the school of Antioch, who had earlier been condemned for holding that Christ was only a man; although he was later reconciled. He is called the "Father of Arianism" because " Arius and almost all the 4th-century Arian theologians were his students. Calling themselves Lucianists and Collucianists, they developed his adoptionist and subordinationist tendencies into a full heresy." [Harkins 1967, 1057, 1058] " Archbishop Dmitri of the Orthodox Church in America has identified Islam as the largest descendant of Arianism today. There is some superficial similarity in Islam's teaching that Jesus was a great prophet, but very distinct from God, although Islam sees Jesus as a human messenger of God without the divine properties that Arianism attributes to the Christ. Islam sees itself as a continuation of the Jewish and Christian traditions and reveres many of the same prophets. " "Arianism was a Christological view held by followers of Arius in the early Christian Church, claiming that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not of the same fundamental essence, seeing the Son as a pre-existent divine being, created by the Father (and subsequently inferior to Him.) Some historical records indicate that Arius believed, quite simply, that Jesus was an important prophet, but also a man like other men. The First Council of Nicaea (325 A.D.) condemned Arianism, after much controversy, and declared it heretical; similar views, and in some cases revival of the name, have recurred. It is also indicated that many of the Arian Christians became Muslims, although Islam itself rejects the Arian Christology. Constantine is said to have renounced trinitarianism in favor of Arianism on his death bed. Arius was reported to have been poisoned. " The time line shows "on the first day of the week" or "on the third day" The first day of the week is Sunday. The Crucifixion was Friday, the first day. Saturday was the second day. Sunday, the Resurrection, was the third day. "On the third day He rose again." please look at that chart more carefully and you will see much more than you mentioned. This is a great post on the first really big heresy in the church. It even says that Arius reconciles. I did not know that. I don't know where to begin, but I am now interested in how top historians of all colors view the events in the Roman Empire around the 4th century. I don't care what they teach children in New York City or Istanbul. I'm interested in what top scholars at Columbia or Harvard have to say. I'd be most interested if there was a collaboration between Christians (including Catholics and Protestants), Muslims, and Jews. It would be a lot more credible than the slanted views I've heard over the years.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 15:33:10 GMT -5
The Mystery of the Cross from The Acts of John
Augustine, who was a bishop from 396 to 430 CE, quoted from that book. Besides, a literary analysis of the book suggests that it was composed in the second half of the second century CE. (Cameron R, 1982)
At its fifth session the Nicene council of 787 pronounced on the Acts of John: “No-one is to copy (this book): not only so, but we consider that it deserves to be consigned to the fire.” Conc. Nic. II, actio V (Mansi vol. 13, col. 176 A)
In the West Leo the Great had given a similar verdict to the entire compass of the apocryphal literature used by the Priscillianists: “The apocryphal writings, however, which under the names of the apostles contain a hotbed of manifold perversity, should not only be forbidden but altogether removed and burnt with fire.” Leo the Great, Letter to Turribius of Astorga on 21 July 447, c. 15; PL 54, col. 688A.
they burnt these books because it was against what they were taught by their fathers.these must be the reason that we do not have so many of these testimonies.
ACTS OF JOHN
"And we as men gone astray or dazed with sleep fled this way and that. I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God.
And having thus spoken, he showed me a cross of light fixed, and about the cross a great multitude, not having one form: and in it (the cross) was one form and one likeness. And the Lord himself I beheld above the cross, not having any shape, but only a voice: and a voice not such as was familiar to us, but one sweet and kind and truly of God, saying unto me: John, it is needful that one should hear these things from me, for I have need of one that will hear. This cross of light is sometimes called the word by me for your sakes, sometimes mind, sometimes Jesus, sometimes Christ, sometimes door, sometimes a way, sometimes bread, sometimes seed, sometimes resurrection, sometimes Son, sometimes Father, sometimes Spirit, sometimes life, sometimes truth, sometimes faith, sometimes grace. And by these names it is called as toward men: but that which it is in truth, as conceived of in itself and as spoken of unto you, it is the marking-off of all things, and the firm uplifting of things fixed out of things unstable, and the harmony of wisdom, and indeed wisdom in harmony. There are of the right hand and the left, powers also, authorities, lordships and demons, workings, threatenings, wraths, devils, Satan, and the lower root whence the nature of the things that come into being proceeded.
This cross, then, is that which joined all things unto itself by a word, and separate off the things that are from those that are below, and then also, being one, streamed forth into all things, making all into one. But this is not the cross of wood which thou wilt see when thou goest down hence: neither am I he that is on the cross, whom now thou seest not, but only hearest a voice. I was reckoned to be that which I am not, not being what I was unto many others: but they will call me (say of me) something else which is vile and not worthy of me. As, then, the place of rest is neither seen nor spoken of, much more shall I, the Lord thereof, be neither seen nor spoken of.
Now the uniform crowd around the Cross is the Lower Nature, but those whom thou seest in the Cross, if they have not also one form (it is because) every Limb of the One who came down has not yet been gathered together. But as soon as the Higher Nature and Race, coming to me in obedience to my Voice, is taken up, then what does not hear me now will become as thou art, and shall no longer be what it is now, but over them even as I am now. For until thou callest thyself mine, I am not that which I am, but if thou hearest me attentively, thou too shalt be as I am, while I shall be what I was, as soon as I have beside myself thee as I am. For from this thou art.
Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the rest of the Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered.
When he had spoken unto me these things, and others which I know not how to say as he would have me, he was taken up, no one of the multitudes having beheld him. And when I went down I laughed them all to scorn, inasmuch as he had told me the things which they have said concerning him; holding fast this one thing in myself, that the Lord contrived all things symbolically and by a dispensation toward men, for their conversion and salvation.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 15:49:38 GMT -5
but I am now interested in how top historians of all colors view the events in the Roman Empire around the 4th century. ecole.evansville.edu/arians/arius1.htmArius' Letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia c 319 CE (from Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, I, IV. LPNF, ser. 2, vol. 3, 41. To his very dear lord, the man of God, the faithful and orthodox Eusebius, Arius, unjustly persecuted by Alexander the Pope, on account of that all conquering truth of which you also are a champion, sendeth greeting in the Lord. Ammonius, my father, being about to depart for Nicomedia, I considered myself bound to salute you by him, and withal to inform that natural affection which you bear towards the brethern for the sake of God and His Christ, that the bishop greatly wastes and persecutes us, and leaves no stone unturned against us. He has driven us out of the city as atheists, because we do not concur in what he publicly preaches, namely, God always, the Son always; as the Father so the Son; the Son co-exists unbegotten with the God; He is everlasting; neither by thought nor by any interval does God precede the Son; always God, always Son; he is begotten of the unbegotten; the Son is of God Himself. Eusebius, your brother bishop of Caesarea, Theodotus, Paulinus, Athanasius, Gregorius, Aetius, and all the bishops of the East, have been condemned because they say that God had an existence prior to that of his Son; except Philogonius, Hellanicus, and Macarius, who are unlearned men, and who have embraced heretical opinions. Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that He is a production, others the He is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe, and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten; and that He does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by His own will and counsel He has subsisted before time, and before ages, as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before He was begotten, or created, or purposed, ot established, He was not. For He was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. This is the cause of our persecution, and likewise, because we say that He is of the non-existent. And this we say, because He is neither part of God, nor of any essential being. For this are we persecuted; the rest you know. I bid thee farewell in the Lord, remembering our afflictions, my fellow-Lucianist, and true Eusebius.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 17:24:23 GMT -5
The Mystery of the Cross from The Acts of JohnAugustine, who was a bishop from 396 to 430 CE, quoted from that book. Besides, a literary analysis of the book suggests that it was composed in the second half of the second century CE. (Cameron R, 1982) At its fifth session the Nicene council of 787 pronounced on the Acts of John: “ No-one is to copy (this book): not only so, but we consider that it deserves to be consigned to the fire.” Conc. Nic. II, actio V (Mansi vol. 13, col. 176 A) In the West Leo the Great had given a similar verdict to the entire compass of the apocryphal literature used by the Priscillianists: “ The apocryphal writings, however, which under the names of the apostles contain a hotbed of manifold perversity, should not only be forbidden but altogether removed and burnt with fire.” Leo the Great, Letter to Turribius of Astorga on 21 July 447, c. 15; PL 54, col. 688A. they burnt these books because it was against what they were taught by their fathers.these must be the reason that we do not have so many of these testimonies. ACTS OF JOHN"And we as men gone astray or dazed with sleep fled this way and that. I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God. And having thus spoken, he showed me a cross of light fixed, and about the cross a great multitude, not having one form: and in it (the cross) was one form and one likeness. And the Lord himself I beheld above the cross, not having any shape, but only a voice: and a voice not such as was familiar to us, but one sweet and kind and truly of God, saying unto me: John, it is needful that one should hear these things from me, for I have need of one that will hear. This cross of light is sometimes called the word by me for your sakes, sometimes mind, sometimes Jesus, sometimes Christ, sometimes door, sometimes a way, sometimes bread, sometimes seed, sometimes resurrection, sometimes Son, sometimes Father, sometimes Spirit, sometimes life, sometimes truth, sometimes faith, sometimes grace. And by these names it is called as toward men: but that which it is in truth, as conceived of in itself and as spoken of unto you, it is the marking-off of all things, and the firm uplifting of things fixed out of things unstable, and the harmony of wisdom, and indeed wisdom in harmony. There are of the right hand and the left, powers also, authorities, lordships and demons, workings, threatenings, wraths, devils, Satan, and the lower root whence the nature of the things that come into being proceeded. This cross, then, is that which joined all things unto itself by a word, and separate off the things that are from those that are below, and then also, being one, streamed forth into all things, making all into one. But this is not the cross of wood which thou wilt see when thou goest down hence: neither am I he that is on the cross, whom now thou seest not, but only hearest a voice. I was reckoned to be that which I am not, not being what I was unto many others: but they will call me (say of me) something else which is vile and not worthy of me. As, then, the place of rest is neither seen nor spoken of, much more shall I, the Lord thereof, be neither seen nor spoken of. Now the uniform crowd around the Cross is the Lower Nature, but those whom thou seest in the Cross, if they have not also one form (it is because) every Limb of the One who came down has not yet been gathered together. But as soon as the Higher Nature and Race, coming to me in obedience to my Voice, is taken up, then what does not hear me now will become as thou art, and shall no longer be what it is now, but over them even as I am now. For until thou callest thyself mine, I am not that which I am, but if thou hearest me attentively, thou too shalt be as I am, while I shall be what I was, as soon as I have beside myself thee as I am. For from this thou art. Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the rest of the Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered. When he had spoken unto me these things, and others which I know not how to say as he would have me, he was taken up, no one of the multitudes having beheld him. And when I went down I laughed them all to scorn, inasmuch as he had told me the things which they have said concerning him; holding fast this one thing in myself, that the Lord contrived all things symbolically and by a dispensation toward men, for their conversion and salvation. The church councils are guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything inspired by God is in the Bible. This "Acts of John" was not inspired by God according to the council. How can I doubt the church fathers when so much love, joy, and peace is in my soul from my God, Jesus, who I receive regularly in the Most Blessed Sacrament? 2000 years later, I enjoy participation in the holy sacrifice of the Mass, just as the early church fathers did in the homes of the followers.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 17:25:38 GMT -5
but I am now interested in how top historians of all colors view the events in the Roman Empire around the 4th century. ecole.evansville.edu/arians/arius1.htmArius' Letter to Eusebius of Nicomedia c 319 CE (from Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, I, IV. LPNF, ser. 2, vol. 3, 41. To his very dear lord, the man of God, the faithful and orthodox Eusebius, Arius, unjustly persecuted by Alexander the Pope, on account of that all conquering truth of which you also are a champion, sendeth greeting in the Lord. Ammonius, my father, being about to depart for Nicomedia, I considered myself bound to salute you by him, and withal to inform that natural affection which you bear towards the brethern for the sake of God and His Christ, that the bishop greatly wastes and persecutes us, and leaves no stone unturned against us. He has driven us out of the city as atheists, because we do not concur in what he publicly preaches, namely, God always, the Son always; as the Father so the Son; the Son co-exists unbegotten with the God; He is everlasting; neither by thought nor by any interval does God precede the Son; always God, always Son; he is begotten of the unbegotten; the Son is of God Himself. Eusebius, your brother bishop of Caesarea, Theodotus, Paulinus, Athanasius, Gregorius, Aetius, and all the bishops of the East, have been condemned because they say that God had an existence prior to that of his Son; except Philogonius, Hellanicus, and Macarius, who are unlearned men, and who have embraced heretical opinions. Some of them say that the Son is an eructation, others that He is a production, others the He is also unbegotten. These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. But we say and believe, and have taught, and do teach, that the Son is not unbegotten; and that He does not derive his subsistence from any matter; but that by His own will and counsel He has subsisted before time, and before ages, as perfect God, only begotten and unchangeable, and that before He was begotten, or created, or purposed, ot established, He was not. For He was not unbegotten. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. This is the cause of our persecution, and likewise, because we say that He is of the non-existent. And this we say, because He is neither part of God, nor of any essential being. For this are we persecuted; the rest you know. I bid thee farewell in the Lord, remembering our afflictions, my fellow-Lucianist, and true Eusebius. Arius eventually saw the error of his ways, did he not?
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 18:13:53 GMT -5
The writings of Paul support the law and the prophets, heaven and earth still exist Matthew 5:18 (King James Version) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Matthew 19:17" if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments." no comment; 1 Corinthians 10:33 " even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved ." " Do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I pleased men, I should not be the servant of Messiah” (Gal.1:10). " A man is not justified by the works of the Law” (Gal. 2:16) " For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified” (Rom 2:13) “ We are justified by Faith and not by doing something the Law tells us to do” Rom. 3:28. " Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Heb, 2:2). Galatians 2:11-14 ‘ When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray." " My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." (John 15.12) “ Behold I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing " (Gal. 5:1-4). This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. (Genesis 17:14) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19) " So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42 New American Standard Bible) For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7, King James Version) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (Matthew 7:23, New American Standard Bible) but also those things which were promised by God to Abraham 400 years before the law was given. And simply say the law did not change the promise of God. no he does not say that,he says to break the everlasting covenant of GOD with Abraham Peter did defend Paul, although he said his saying were hard to understand by those who wrestle in disobedience. I personally don't believe the problem is in the writings, but in the understanding of many about them. Sometimes people try to make things say what they want to believe rather than looking at the whole picture. those who wrestle in disobedience? he has a way to get out of disobedience as he did to get away from the everlasting covenants of GOD; " Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Heb, 2:2). we do not know if Peter defended Paul or not.all we know is the one sided writings of Paul and his disciple Luke.true disciples of Jesus who received holy spirit,did not even believe that Paul was a disciple and later all of them left him alone for the certain reasons. As far as the deity of Jesus you know we disagree on that. He allowed people to worship him, something even no angel did. He said I and the Father are one, and again If you have seen me you have seen the Father. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods? John 17:20-22 " That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". about seing GOD through Jesus,it means that he was sent by HIM.he clearly explains that he received commandment; "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."John 12:49 " No one has seen God at any time."1 John 4:12 “ no man shall see Me and live” (Exodus 33:20) " I do not accept praise from men, (John 5:41) " Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed....(From the NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39)" " So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:44)" " One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)" " No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)" John 14:28 " My Father (GOD) is greater than I"
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 18:21:47 GMT -5
Arius eventually saw the error of his ways, did he not? yes he saw; " the bishop greatly wastes and persecutes us, and leaves no stone unturned against us. He has driven us out of the city as atheists " " Eusebius, your brother bishop of Caesarea, Theodotus, Paulinus, Athanasius, Gregorius, Aetius, and all the bishops of the East, have been condemned " These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. This is the cause of our persecution
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 18:33:07 GMT -5
Arius eventually saw the error of his ways, did he not? yes he saw; " the bishop greatly wastes and persecutes us, and leaves no stone unturned against us. He has driven us out of the city as atheists " " Eusebius, your brother bishop of Caesarea, Theodotus, Paulinus, Athanasius, Gregorius, Aetius, and all the bishops of the East, have been condemned " These are impieties to which we cannot listen, even though heretics threaten us with a thousand deaths. We are persecuted, because we say that the Son has a beginning, but that God is without beginning. This is the cause of our persecutionI think Arius later reconciled with the church, no?
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 18:40:31 GMT -5
The church councils are guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything inspired by God is in the Bible. This "Acts of John" was not inspired by God according to the council. How can I doubt the church fathers when so much love, joy, and peace is in my soul from my God, Jesus, who I receive regularly in the Most Blessed Sacrament? 2000 years later, I enjoy participation in the holy sacrifice of the Mass, just as the early church fathers did in the homes of the followers. that is your belief and we all are free to believe in whatever we want.who knows maybe someday the Holy Spirit that guides the church councils , will gather the other Christians as well under the Vatican (since Holy Spirit is believed to be with them as well).
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