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Post by enginterzi on Aug 3, 2010 18:53:33 GMT -5
I think Arius later reconciled with the church, no? the thing is that Christians who believed differently were oppressed by the Holy Spirit guided Councils.as far as i know he did not change his belief but Constantine later changed his mind but on the way Arius was killed.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 20:51:05 GMT -5
The church councils are guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything inspired by God is in the Bible. This "Acts of John" was not inspired by God according to the council. How can I doubt the church fathers when so much love, joy, and peace is in my soul from my God, Jesus, who I receive regularly in the Most Blessed Sacrament? 2000 years later, I enjoy participation in the holy sacrifice of the Mass, just as the early church fathers did in the homes of the followers. that is your belief and we all are free to believe in whatever we want.who knows maybe someday the Holy Spirit that guides the church councils , will gather the other Christians as well under the Vatican (since Holy Spirit is believed to be with them as well). It would be great if all Christians were united. The first big split came in the 1050's, the second in the 1530's. I view it as tragic, but others do not. This thread is largely Christian vs Muslim beliefs, so I will leave it at that.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 3, 2010 21:16:52 GMT -5
I think Arius later reconciled with the church, no? the thing is that Christians who believed differently were oppressed by the Holy Spirit guided Councils.as far as i know he did not change his belief but Constantine later changed his mind but on the way Arius was killed. Every Pope for the first 300 years (until Constantine became emperor) knew he would be killed, and in fact, they were all killed at the hands of Nero and other Roman emperors for the name of Jesus. Many, many times more innocent Christians were killed than heretics. As far as Christians believing differently than the Bishops, that makes them not part of the church. You can call it "oppressed" if you choose, but it is what it is. Jesus is the OBJECTIVE, ABSOLUTE TRUTH. He was eternally begotten of the Father. All truth flows from there. Opinions are irrelevant. Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. All of life's existential questions and philosophies are answered by Jesus. Without Jesus, they are merely questions and opinions.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 4, 2010 3:48:18 GMT -5
Every Pope for the first 300 years (until Constantine became emperor) knew he would be killed, and in fact, they were all killed at the hands of Nero and other Roman emperors for the name of Jesus. Many, many times more innocent Christians were killed than heretics. True,it continued until the Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. As far as Christians believing differently than the Bishops, that makes them not part of the church. by saying "Church" you mean the Catholic faith.soon or late it happenned,right? You can call it "oppressed" if you choose i mean the persecutions.
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Post by Ty Kissner on Aug 4, 2010 10:11:13 GMT -5
after 10 pages of reading, i have noticed that 3 of the most devout religous worshipers on this board some how managed to read the same passages yet have 3 different perspectives on that passage......and here lies my biggest issue with religion, its open to interpretation, meaning that any person can see or belive what the feel like......serously religion is based on faith and believe, it was the first invented marketing campaign, religion in the beggining is no different than the expensive superbowl commercials u see today, it was a mass marketing ploy to control the masses, is religion good, yes the world would be chaos with out it, it holds most people accountable for leading a good natured life....anyways reading the past 10 pages has been more confusing than understanding why there are 3 armwrestling bodies in the usa......take care gents.
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Post by Michael Wells on Aug 4, 2010 11:35:27 GMT -5
THATS why it shouldn't be "religion", but "relationship". Religion is governed by God but ran by man, which allows many areas to screw up. I don't believe in following a religion. I believe in following Christ, which begins with relationship.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 4, 2010 15:51:07 GMT -5
Every Pope for the first 300 years (until Constantine became emperor) knew he would be killed, and in fact, they were all killed at the hands of Nero and other Roman emperors for the name of Jesus. Many, many times more innocent Christians were killed than heretics. True,it continued until the Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. by saying "Church" you mean the Catholic faith.soon or late it happenned,right? You can call it "oppressed" if you choose i mean the persecutions. "Catholic" means universal. In the 4th century, there was only one universal Christian faith.
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Post by enginterzi on Aug 4, 2010 17:37:56 GMT -5
First Christians;
Ebionites
The Ebionites viewed Jesus (depicted here) as a holy man but not as God (The Sermon on the Mount by Carl Heinrich Bloch, 1890)The Ebionites (from Hebrew; àáéåðéí, Ebyonim, "the poor ones") were an early sect of Jewish followers of Jesus that flourished from the first to the fifth century C.E. in and around the Land of Israel. In contrast to the dominant Christian sects that viewed Jesus as the incarnation of God, the Ebionites saw Jesus as a mortal human being, who by being a holy man, was chosen by God to be the prophet of the "Kingdom of Heaven."The Ebionites insisted on following Jewish dietary and religious laws, and rejected the writings of Paul of Tarsus.Thus, Ebionites were in theological conflict with the emerging dominant streams of Christianity that opened up to the Gentiles.
Scholarly knowledge of the Ebionites is limited and fragmentary, deriving primarily from the polemics of the early Church Fathers. Many scholars argue that they existed as a distinct group from Pauline Christians and Gnostic Christians before and after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., and they have been linked to the Jerusalem church of James, the brother of Jesus. Some even contend that Ebionites were more faithful than Paul to the authentic teachings of Jesus.They called themselves the 'Poor Ones' because they regarded a vow of poverty to be central to actualizing the "kingdom of God" was already on Earth. Accordingly, they dispossessed themselves of all their goods and lived in religious communistic societies.Their accounts at times seem to be contradictory due to the double application of the term "Ebionite," some referring to Jewish Christianity as a whole, others only to a sect within it.
Reports on the Ebionites by the Church Fathers may have exaggerated the theological difference between them and orthodox Christians due to the polemical nature of these reports and their aim to purge the church of the remnants of Jewish influence.
"..Prior to this, they are considered to be part of the Jerusalem church led by the Apostle Peter and later by Jesus' brother, or cousin, James...."
"After the end of the First Jewish-Roman War (destruction of Jerusalem) , the importance of the Jerusalem church began to fade. Jewish Christianity became dispersed throughout the Jewish diaspora in the Levant, where it was slowly eclipsed by gentile Christianity, which then spread throughout the Roman Empire without competition from "judaizing" Christian groups. Once the Jerusalem church, still headed by Jesus' relatives, was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers. ."
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 4, 2010 20:29:47 GMT -5
after 10 pages of reading, i have noticed that 3 of the most devout religous worshipers on this board some how managed to read the same passages yet have 3 different perspectives on that passage......and here lies my biggest issue with religion, its open to interpretation, meaning that any person can see or belive what the feel like...... It is NOT "open" to interpretation. Truth is truth. And truth is absolute. YES some interpret things different. But god isn't siting in heaven hoping that you follow whatever it is you have interpreted. He sits in heaven and hopes that you will ask him what he meant. And follow his truth. YES some use and have used it as a marketing tool. Or a "leverage" against the masses. But the flaws of mans use with the information is not a fault of the truth therein.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 4, 2010 20:37:46 GMT -5
First Christians; Ebionites The Ebionites viewed Jesus (depicted here) as a holy man but not as God (The Sermon on the Mount by Carl Heinrich Bloch, 1890)The Ebionites (from Hebrew; àáéåðéí, Ebyonim, "the poor ones") were an early sect of Jewish followers of Jesus that flourished from the first to the fifth century C.E. in and around the Land of Israel. In contrast to the dominant Christian sects that viewed Jesus as the incarnation of God, the Ebionites saw Jesus as a mortal human being, who by being a holy man, was chosen by God to be the prophet of the "Kingdom of Heaven."The Ebionites insisted on following Jewish dietary and religious laws, and rejected the writings of Paul of Tarsus.Thus, Ebionites were in theological conflict with the emerging dominant streams of Christianity that opened up to the Gentiles. Scholarly knowledge of the Ebionites is limited and fragmentary, deriving primarily from the polemics of the early Church Fathers. Many scholars argue that they existed as a distinct group from Pauline Christians and Gnostic Christians before and after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., and they have been linked to the Jerusalem church of James, the brother of Jesus. Some even contend that Ebionites were more faithful than Paul to the authentic teachings of Jesus.They called themselves the 'Poor Ones' because they regarded a vow of poverty to be central to actualizing the "kingdom of God" was already on Earth. Accordingly, they dispossessed themselves of all their goods and lived in religious communistic societies.Their accounts at times seem to be contradictory due to the double application of the term "Ebionite," some referring to Jewish Christianity as a whole, others only to a sect within it. Reports on the Ebionites by the Church Fathers may have exaggerated the theological difference between them and orthodox Christians due to the polemical nature of these reports and their aim to purge the church of the remnants of Jewish influence. ".. Prior to this, they are considered to be part of the Jerusalem church led by the Apostle Peter and later by Jesus' brother, or cousin, James...." "After the end of the First Jewish-Roman War (destruction of Jerusalem) , the importance of the Jerusalem church began to fade. Jewish Christianity became dispersed throughout the Jewish diaspora in the Levant, where it was slowly eclipsed by gentile Christianity, which then spread throughout the Roman Empire without competition from "judaizing" Christian groups. Once the Jerusalem church, still headed by Jesus' relatives, was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers. ." Acts 2 (Pentecost) is the beginning of the church. Any group calling themselves Christians that were not in line with Peter were not Christians. They were heretics. James was merely the leader of the Jewish Christians, but subjected himself to the authority of Peter. Peter, James, and John were with Jesus at the Transfiguration. They KNEW Jesus was God. They also KNEW Jesus had given Peter primacy. That doesn't mean that Peter, James, and Paul didn't have to resolve differences. That doesn't mean that Peter never made human mistakes. It does mean that he had authority over matters of faith and morals, in collaboration with the other apostles. That still exists today with the Pope and the College of Cardinals.
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Post by Ty Kissner on Aug 4, 2010 21:27:26 GMT -5
after 10 pages of reading, i have noticed that 3 of the most devout religous worshipers on this board some how managed to read the same passages yet have 3 different perspectives on that passage......and here lies my biggest issue with religion, its open to interpretation, meaning that any person can see or belive what the feel like...... It is NOT "open" to interpretation. Truth is truth. And truth is absolute. YES some interpret things different. But god isn't siting in heaven hoping that you follow whatever it is you have interpreted. He sits in heaven and hopes that you will ask him what he meant. And follow his truth. YES some use and have used it as a marketing tool. Or a "leverage" against the masses. But the flaws of mans use with the information is not a fault of the truth therein. So ryan when u speak to god, does he speak back to you, or thru interpretation find answers in scripturue, thought, and prayer? If god does not speak to you directly how can you be certain what he means? Im not deniuncing god nor trying to disprove his existance, but if noone has ever spoken directly to him how in the blue hell do you know what he means. As for truth being truth again that is open to interpretation, just look at you engin and bob. You all believe your views on religion as the truth yet many aspects your interpretations about specific verses are profoundly different, between the three of you which ones belief is the truth......
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 4, 2010 22:18:09 GMT -5
So ryan when u speak to god, does he speak back to you, or thru interpretation find answers in scripturue, thought, and prayer....... between the three of you which ones belief is the truth...... I guess that's something you will have to ask god.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 4, 2010 22:20:11 GMT -5
between the three of you which ones belief is the truth...... Joshua asked the angel of the lord a very similar question. He asked "are you for us or for our enemy"? The angel of the lord responded "neither"
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Post by Ty Kissner on Aug 4, 2010 22:32:47 GMT -5
since i wnt be talking to god anytime soon dnt really care. But funny u cant answer a logical question, i guess thats the religous way when confronted with the truth deflect and distract from the subject.
Anyways like i said between the three of you you cnt agree on the truth, just goes to blow holes in the whole religion thing......
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Post by Bob Paradis on Aug 5, 2010 3:37:02 GMT -5
since i wnt be talking to god anytime soon dnt really care. But funny u cant answer a logical question, i guess thats the religous way when confronted with the truth deflect and distract from the subject. Anyways like i said between the three of you you cnt agree on the truth, just goes to blow holes in the whole religion thing...... Learning the truth is a lifetime of discovery. You should be talking to God every day, regardless of your feelings of religion. Let me ask you a "logical" question...Why do you believe that you exist? What is the meaning of your entire life? Is it even remotely possible that Ty Kissner is a random, meaningless, existence, with no other purpose than the pursuit of pleasure? I'll give you my answer. Your purpose is to love, to sacrifice yourself for others. As you approach your wedding, it would be wise for you to always keep that in mind. As you grow in age and wisdom, your heart may open enough to let the light of God in. It is a wonderful discovery. Just don't believe that you are above it all. Pride and haughtiness will keep you from that discovery.
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