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Post by Ty Kissner on Mar 27, 2007 12:36:32 GMT -5
I think Jack dempsey would have been able to hold his own against the greats of the 60, 70 and 80's.
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Post by Mark Evans on Mar 27, 2007 14:10:09 GMT -5
Ali would have destroyed Tyson when both were in their prime. Foreman would have too. Tyson was good not great. He could have been great but he was too much of a punk. The greats of the 60's 70's and 80's would have destoryed him: Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Shavers, jimmy Young. Granted Buster Douglas beat him when Tyson was a shell of former self, but Tyson never was the type to get up and win after being knocked down. He was a quitter when people stood up to him or refused to be intimidated. Maricano was great, but he was a light heavyweight. As much as I like him, I do not believe that he could hang with the bigger heavier guys. Bill is good, he hit it right on the head, except he left out Joe Frazier. Evander should be listed as one of the best fighters of our era. Watch ESPN classics and you will see why. I still think he should retire.Tyson had the potential to be a great heavyweight, however when Cuss died and he fired Kevin Rooney his career took a turn for the worse. He started believing he was as great as his new entourage was telling him he was. As much as I loved Ali as a boxer I have to agree with Todd in his opinion regarding his support of our/his country. Of course some would say he took a stand for what he believed in. A lot of people say the Heavyweight division isn't as good as it once was. I won't get into that argument. I will say this, the heavyweights are bigger and stronger then they used to be. I don't think it's possible to try and compare. Here is my top ten greatest Heavyweights of ALL TIME. #1. Muhammad Ali, fought and beat the best for 3 decades. Olympic Gold medal. #2. Larry Holmes, Great hammer left jab. Hard right hand. Big fast and TOUGH. Got off the floor with his eyes rolling in the back of his head to beat Ernie Shavers. Beat Ken Norton with one good arm. #3. Joe Louis, Small at approx. 200lbs Great skills, defended his title for, (I believe 18 years). Great power and heart. He ended up broke because he gave so much. #4. George Foreman Young George hit harder than anyone ever has in the sport. Don't believe it, watch tapes of his fights with Frazier, Norton, and Ron Lyle. Olympic Gold Medal with only 28 amateur fights! #5. Lennox Lewis Big fast and strong. Great movement and better than average power in both hands. 84 inch reach. Lost twice, avenged both losses. Olympic Gold Medal. #6. Joe Frazier Small at 205lbs, None stop attacker, great head movement, bob and weave. Could take huge amounts of punishment and dish out more. Olympic Gold Medal. #7. Rocky Marciano Even smaller at 185lbs. Great power in both hands. Huge heart. He and Frazier would have made a great fight. Only undefeated Heavyweight Champion. #8. Jack Dempsey One of my personal favorites. I once had a very game dog I named after him. Fought in an era when people were hungry. Developed the roll under left hook. TOUGH MAN. #9. Evander Holyfield The REAL DEAL. Huge heart. Great skills. A true warrior who I believe is fighting way past his prime. #10. Jack Johnson First "true boxer." Fought in an era when being a black heavyweight champion could get you killed. Great skills even by new era standards. Pure power punchers not on list. #1. Ernie Shavers #2. Mike Tyson #3. Ron Lyle #4. Gerry Cooney Happy Carey?
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 27, 2007 16:46:28 GMT -5
Frazier vs Foreman
IMO no other man than Muhammad Ali could beat George Foreman in his prime time.Foreman has never been knocked out in his 81 matches career ,except once by Muhammad Ali.after seing his match against Frazier i think that Foreman is the second greatest ever.
and Ali,the world's greatest (parts of fights with Foreman after 2.30min);
the FASTEST,SMARTEST and GREATEST OF ALL TIMES...
NEVER SEEN ANYONE FASTER,SMARTER THAN ALI AS A SUPER HEAVYWEIGHT..
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Post by Mark Evans on Mar 27, 2007 17:27:39 GMT -5
Engin, The reason I like Holmes over Foreman is this. The 2 fighters that beat George in his prime were Ali and Jimmy Young. They streched out the fight which wore George out. Larry had the size, hand speed and movement combined with stength and HEART. I really don't believe George could have gotten to him enough to stop him. All the while he would have been eating that jack hammer left jab and hard right hands. There was a reason why Ali, Frazier and George wanted nothing to do with a young up and coming boxer named Larry Holmes. I like a young Joe Lewis over big George. All though I believe you could make an argument either way. I remember Frazier and George, I havn't taken the time to watch it, but I remember it well. Watch the first round and you will see Joe check George's chin with that famous left hook. George didn't even blink!! George hits him so hard it pick Joe up off his feet. Thanks for posting Engin. I think I'll have some fun and watch it now.
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Post by enginterzi on Mar 27, 2007 18:49:21 GMT -5
[ As much as I loved Ali as a boxer I have to agree with Todd in his opinion regarding his support of our/his country. Of course some would say he took a stand for what he believed in. "Clay wins the light-heavyweight gold medal at the Summer Olympics in Rome with a 5–0 decision over Poland's Zbigniew Pietrzykowski. Upon returning to his native Louisville, Clay finds he's not immune to the racism that is so prevalent in the U.S. After being refused service by a waitress at a "whites-only" restaurant, and then fighting with a white gang, a disgusted Clay throws his gold medal into the Ohio River." represanting USA in the olympics games,honouring the nation with an olympic gold medal,pulling the American flag to the highest,making the whole world listening American national anthem with respect but still being treated as low as animals.IMO it is hard someone to feel himself fully part of a nation that treats him as 2. class citizen&human being. "Why should they ask me to put on a uniform and go 10,000 miles from home and drop bombs and bullets on Brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs and denied simple human rights? No I'm not going 10,000 miles from home to help murder and burn another poor nation simply to continue the domination of white slave masters of the darker people the world over. This is the day when such evils must come to an end. I have been warned that to take such a stand would cost me millions of dollars. But I have said it once and I will say it again. The real enemy of my people is here. I will not disgrace my religion, my people or myself by becoming a tool to enslave those who are fighting for their own justice, freedom and equality. If I thought the war was going to bring freedom and equality to 22 million of my people they wouldn't have to draft me, I'd join tomorrow. I have nothing to lose by standing up for my beliefs. So I'll go to jail, so what? We've been in jail for 400 years." "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong.No Vietcong ever called me 'n.gger'."
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Post by Mark Evans on Mar 27, 2007 19:14:58 GMT -5
Thats the other point of view I was referring too. In most cases in life, there are two sides to every story.
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Post by Ty Kissner on Mar 27, 2007 20:23:27 GMT -5
I cannot blame Cassius for not going o Vietnam, it was within his moral belief that the war was unjust and therfore he felt obligated not to represent his country on a war front, but Mr. Clay did represent his country as an athlete and for that should be heralded for his outstanding athletic accomplisments...
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Post by Ty Kissner on Mar 27, 2007 20:28:01 GMT -5
Tyson was a great heavyweight for 4 or so years he dominated a weight class with reckless abandon, he by far displayed the most knockout power of any heavyweight, I would bet my life savings that Pre jail tyson would beat any of these guys in their prime....the man was an animal and had more than enough skills to do it.....it was unfortunate that his career took a series of bad turns and his boxing was deminished to more of a side show circus spectacle...
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Post by Matt "CHOP" Bertrand on Mar 27, 2007 23:39:37 GMT -5
Ali would have destroyed Tyson when both were in their prime. Foreman would have too. Tyson was good not great. He could have been great but he was too much of a punk. The greats of the 60's 70's and 80's would have destoryed him: Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Shavers, jimmy Young. Granted Buster Douglas beat him when Tyson was a shell of former self, but Tyson never was the type to get up and win after being knocked down. He was a quitter when people stood up to him or refused to be intimidated. Maricano was great, but he was a light heavyweight. As much as I like him, I do not believe that he could hang with the bigger heavier guys. \ Are you serious, u obviously know nothing about boxing. All ali coulld do was dance, tyson would have smoked him!!!!
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Post by Matt "CHOP" Bertrand on Mar 27, 2007 23:42:05 GMT -5
Tyson was a great heavyweight for 4 or so years he dominated a weight class with reckless abandon, he by far displayed the most knockout power of any heavyweight, I would bet my life savings that Pre jail tyson would beat any of these guys in their prime....the man was an animal and had more than enough skills to do it.....it was unfortunate that his career took a series of bad turns and his boxing was deminished to more of a side show circus spectacle... I definetly have to agree, tyson was and still is the baddest man on the planet.
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Post by Ty Kissner on Mar 28, 2007 15:01:08 GMT -5
OOh, Matt u just opened up a can of worms.......But I agree Tyson is arguably the best heavyweight ever.....pre rape conviction...
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Mar 28, 2007 16:11:22 GMT -5
I agree with Tyson being the greatest ever to an extent but I think Dempsey would have taken him he was one of the toughest ever they threw knees and everything when he started out at a very young age.
But about Ali sure standing up for his rights maybe I could give a rats ass about him representing his country in sports after dodging the draft he wasn't no better than them other poor boys that lost their lives cause they weren't chicken craps like he was. Thats what I think of Ali he was a good boxer but as a person I will never respect him for his actions and decisions.
But Dempsey is who I believe to be the best ever an no simulation could ever calculate what would happen in them fights because some people have stronger wills than others and thats a fact.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Mar 28, 2007 16:13:46 GMT -5
I also think Ali should have represented a muslim country since he left ours and didn't fight for it when he was called upon. I personally think they should have hanged him cause I see that as treason. BUT WASN"T HE A RICH BOY? ??
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Post by Ty Kissner on Mar 28, 2007 16:57:35 GMT -5
Very harsh words Johnny, I am not gonnadebate this with anyone but Right or wrong Ali did what he thought was morally right and stood by it, Had it been me or you Im sure our decision might have been different than his, but who know's maybe it wouldnt have been.
as for pre skill ali was good but i believe he lacked the the power to beat a guy like Tyson, as for Dempsey he was a brawler and well a good technical fighter would have picked him apart, with that said he did produce enough power to end any fight with one right hand.......
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Mar 29, 2007 9:27:26 GMT -5
I don't think Ali would have beat Tyson either. Dempsey is there even videos of him boxing I was just wonder cause didn't he start out in the late 1800's I believe thats what I read in that book about him. I think Ali should have been forced to stay by his decision too instead of being allowed back into our country....... He chose to leave he should have been made to stay out......
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