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Post by Bill Maenza on Jul 2, 2007 9:18:19 GMT -5
YOU cant rightly interpret scripture.....if you have not recived that second work of grace. I get my guidance DIRECTLY from the Holy spirit that lives in me according to acts 2:8 Afforded to me through the blood is the "red phone" The holy spirit. Christs sacrifice made the way so that i can have direct relationship with the Father, Through the Spirit By Christ. Ryan, In a previous thread this was mentioned ( I pasted only the parts that I was interested in). Are you saying that you speak in tongues? If so, I am guessing that you man in "new" tongues and not the tongues of "old", correct? Bill
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Post by JD Slough on Jul 2, 2007 10:24:08 GMT -5
Bill,
This is a very good subject. We actually discussed this in a bible study shortly this past Sunday. ( My church doesn't believe in the being filled with the spirit randomly) Anyways, the discussion was about the legitimacy of claiming to speak in tongues today where people just get "filled" with the spirit and just shout out in nonsense"tongues" or if is real and its just a language we as english speakers don't know. The point was also brought up that is was thier to show we should learn other languages to be able to communicate the word of God to everyone and not just people who speak our native "tongue". What are your thoughts? Keep in mind my ignorance for i am still very new to the word.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Jul 2, 2007 10:35:22 GMT -5
JD - Ryan mentioned it the other day and he did not understand my question or I did not understand the answer (that happens a lot ). I am hoping that he will be able to shed some light on the subject.
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Post by Brittany Bordelon on Jul 2, 2007 10:48:56 GMT -5
Ryan's reponse will more than likely be delayed. He is out of state for a little while with limited or no Internet access. Just so ya'll don't think he is dodging the questions. Hope ya'll have a blessed day!
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Post by Bill Maenza on Jul 2, 2007 10:54:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up Brittany. Ryan does not seem to have mastered dodging yet God bless
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Post by Ian "The Grippler" Carnegie on Jul 2, 2007 11:10:01 GMT -5
I'm Baptist And I moved so their is no Baptist church near. I've been thinking of going to a Pentecostal Church (Spelling) I heard tongues are used in this church. I want to go but I'm unsure if I would ever try to speak in tongues. How can you bee certain you aren't calling him names in the name of the devil. is their an interpreter. Does everyone sound the same. I mean like My speech sounds like Chinese your sounds like German and someone els sounds like Spanish. Do you catch what I mean?
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Post by JD Slough on Jul 2, 2007 11:17:20 GMT -5
Grippler,
Those are questions I have wondered myself, especially over the last few years as I was trying to find my place in religion and where I felt comfortable. So I know exaclty what you mean, but I still don't have answers I just know I have found a great church for me.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 2, 2007 11:49:00 GMT -5
I've actually seen it, but don't know if it was real. The person speaking in tongues was a Catholic Priest at a healing Mass. Not even the priest had any idea what he said. I have no reason to doubt him. It's just that it's goofy to hear...made me feel uneasy. The only thing I know about the subject is what Saint Paul teaches, that it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. People with severe illnesses got healed at these Masses. And people were dropping to the ground after having the anointing oil put on them(probably half the people) But that didn't happen to me. They called it "slain by the Holy Spirit." Some of those that were "slain" laid there for quite a while, completely motionless.
If Saint Paul taught it, I believe it. However, I can comfortably say that I don't know what it is supposed to sound like. If I don't know what is being said, I'm going to feel uneasy. What if the person is really evil, and the "tongues" is coming from a demon? It is just something I'd personally rather not participate in. Your time would be better spent in a soup kitchen or in a prison ministry. That would give greater glory to Jesus.
Disclaimer: If speaking in tongues is part of your regular Sunday worship, then disregard the part about the soup kitchen or prison ministry. Sunday worship is essential for the soul. Then, with a nourished soul, you go out to the masses.
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Post by Bill Maenza on Jul 2, 2007 13:32:35 GMT -5
Interesting information: Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity.
This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).
Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).
Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:
1 – The gift of tongues is a lesser gift from God. While speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, Paul teaches that it is a lesser gift on the continuum of divine gifts from God (1 Cor. 12:10,28,30). For example, Paul says that tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:1-5,19,22). In fact, the gift of tongues is not even mentioned among the gifts of the Spirit in the latter books of the New Testament (Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Peter 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).
2 – The gift of tongues will cease. Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:8). The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:8), the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues.
Paul does not say when the gift of tongues would cease, and whether the gift would return intermittently after its cessation. However, Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization (Aquinas agreed). The fact that the gift of tongues is not recorded in later books of the New Testament suggest that the gift may have even been ceasing during the biblical period.
Nevertheless, there are a few recorded instances of saints speaking in tongues over the centuries (Sts. Dominic, Anthony of Padua, Francis Xavier, John of the Cross, Ignatius of Loyola).
3 – Tongue-speaking has strict parameters. Finally, Paul prescribed strict parameters for those who would receive the gift of tongues:
(a) The person who speaks in tongues should pray for the power to interpret his own tongue (1 Cor. 14:13), or have someone who has the gift of interpretation present to interpret the tongue (1 Cor. 14:27). If the tongue cannot be interpreted, the person is to remain silent (1 Cor. 14:28). Therefore, tongues should not be unintelligible utterances, but should be understood (1 Cor. 14:6-12).
(b) In a congregation, only two or three people at most should speak in tongues (1 Cor. 14:27), and each must speak in turn. This is the case even though there may be hundreds or even thousands of people in a church. The many Protestant churches that call upon many people, even hundreds during a service, to speak in tongues contravenes Paul’s divine mandate, and raises doubts about its authenticity.
(c) The tongue-speaking must be done for the edification of the Church (1 Cor. 14:5,26). Paul says that a person who speaks in tongues edifies himself (1 Cor. 14:4) which is good, but Paul also says tongues must edify the Church. This is why Paul requires one to interpret the tongue, and why Paul says only two or three at the most should speak in tongues during an assembly. A mass proliferation of tongue-speaking in an assembly would lead to confusion. This would not be of divine origin because Paul says, in connection with tongue-speaking, that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).
(d) After setting the parameters of tongue-speaking and warning against avoiding confusion, Paul says that “women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak but should be subordinate, even as the law says” (1 Cor. 14:34). This means that women are not allowed to speak in tongues in church. Paul is underscoring that this is a divine command from God when he ends his statement with “even as the law says.” Again, many Protestant churches contravene this divine command by allowing women to speak “in tongues” in their assemblies.
(e) Paul teaches that a proliferation of tongue-speaking in a church may actually be a sign of unbelief and God’s ensuing judgment upon them. When Paul teaches the Corinthians about the proper use of tongues (1 Cor. 14:21), he quotes from Isaiah 28:11-12: “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Paul’s use of Isaiah is significant because he is referring to the apostate Jews of the 8th century right before they were destroyed by the Assyrians. To punish the Jews, God first allowed the Assyrians to speak in foreign tongues to them to confuse them before they were ultimately destroyed. God’s judgment being revealed in the form of foreign tongues was first prophesied to Israel in the 15th century, B.C. (see Deut. 28:49-50). Remember also how God sent unintelligible tongues to punish His people for their lack of faith at the tower of Babel (Genesis 11).
Therefore, Paul is warning the Corinthians that their abuse of tongue-speaking is a sign of God’s judgment against them. These abuses included many people speaking in tongues, out of turn, without an interpreter, and for pride and not the edification of the church. This is why Paul says that “tongues are a sign…for unbelievers” (1 Cor. 14:22). This is the same “sign” that God gave the unbelieving Jews before they were punished.
This is also why Paul says that unbelievers look at the whole Corinthian church speaking in tongues and conclude that they “are mad” (1 Cor. 14:23). Paul is telling the Corinthians that their abuse of tongues makes them look insane, and this is a sign of their unbelief (that is why tongues are a “sign for unbelievers”; the “unbelievers” were the Corinthians themselves). This is the same reason why Jesus spoke in parables, to further harden the hearts of those who did not believe in Him, as a punishment for their lack of faith (Matt. 13:13-15).
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Jul 2, 2007 13:55:28 GMT -5
I believe there are still a few that "ACTUALLY" speak in tongues but it's like you said with the corinthian quote, If there isn't anyone there to interpret it an your just shouting it out your not doing what God told you to do cause it's not edifying anybody you just seem silly. I have heard church of God people say they are praying to the holy spirit when they do that so the devil can't understand them but it clearly says to remain silent if there is no interpreter which everytime i have heard it there is usually not one. Now my grandma spoke it to me one time when I was younger an she didn't do this often an i happened to be asking her about God an was having some problems in my life an she was giving me advice an she spoke in tongues & interpreted it an I got a message from God. But tongues is a touchy subject for a lot of people. I didn't know about it is supposed to cease though. Wasn't it originally to communicate with other languages though an as men have increased in knowledge we are able to speak other languages an translate them an stuff so we don't really need to speak in them anymore.
Yeah i am baptist but I do believe in speaking in tongues an so does my minister. We are southern baptist. But we just don't speak in tongues or get up an run around real crazy cause it's kinda confusing sometimes an it says God is not the author of confusion so it shoulda seem confusing. At least thats how I look at it.
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Post by STEVE PHIPPS on Jul 2, 2007 14:17:38 GMT -5
Bill,
I agree:
"If the tongue cannot be interpreted, the person is to remain silent (1 Cor. 14:28). Therefore, tongues should not be unintelligible utterances, but should be understood (1 Cor. 14:6-12)."
If it is not of benefit to us then it is not of God. This can be one of the ways to determine if it is a true speaking in tongues or as your other scriptures pointed out..people wanting to make themself look good, special, or stand out from the crowd because of self promotion.
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Post by Robert Bishop on Jul 2, 2007 17:53:11 GMT -5
I also agree
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Ernie
Silver Member
Heavenly Memories Photography
Nebraska
Posts: 270
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Post by Ernie on Jul 2, 2007 19:38:13 GMT -5
Bill,
You've covered this as well as I think it can be done. Much better than I ever could have for sure! I have nothing to add but to tell people to go back and read your post again!
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 2, 2007 20:23:36 GMT -5
Another great post Bill. Thank you.
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Post by Mike West on Jul 2, 2007 21:07:44 GMT -5
Ok, I'm not going to speak for Ryan, but I have also had the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the speaking in tongues, this can be very hard to explain, and I'll try to make it short The gift of tongues as some of you'll have already said, shouldn't be used to give messages from God without an interpreter, but there have been times that I have heard people sing in the Spirit (and it wasn't an uneasy feeling, quite the opposite), then there is also a prayer language, which for me has really been the biggest blessing from the gift, it's when your in prayer (unless you do repetitive prayers) and mentally you just really don't know what to say when speaking to the Lord, that's where your spirit is speaking for you by the Holy Spirit (probably didn't describe it correctly), it's like the Holy Spirit just kinda takes over for you because He knows your heart and concerns. If anyone thinks that we don't need the gifts of the Spirit in this day and age we live in, you need to think again.
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