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Post by Mat Helmer on Jul 13, 2007 18:17:38 GMT -5
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 13, 2007 20:16:28 GMT -5
Before I start a war here, let me state my belief that every single human being has equal dignity in the eyes of God. As far as sexual orientation, no one has ever proved a biological or physical or genetic cause for a homosexual tendency. Many homosexual researchers have made false claims otherwise. A large body of non religious and religious researchers have studied all the evidence and have come to the conclusion that genetics has not been proved to be a factor in sexual orientation. If you contemplate how men and women are built, it doesn't take much thought to understand the design of our human sexuality. Anything else is not natural. I understand that not natural can still be pleasurable to some people. That's not my point. It still isn't natural. The question remains, why? Well, that deserves at least a book or two, so I'm not going to try to explain that here. It isn't my purpose to start a fight or to hurt someones feelings. Its way too sensitive a subject. Just for the record, Mathew, I have short index fingers. ;D The edit was to correct a mispelled word.
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Post by Tim Layton on Jul 13, 2007 22:07:12 GMT -5
Before I start a war here, let me state my belief that every single human being has equal dignity in the eyes of God. As far as sexual orientation, no one has ever proved a biological or physical or genetic cause for a homosexual tendency. Many homosexual researchers have made false claims otherwise. A large body of non religious and religious researchers have studied all the evidence and have come to the conclusion that genetics has not been proved to be a factor in sexual orientation. If you contemplate how men and women are built, it doesn't take much thought to understand the design of our human sexuality. Anything else is not natural. I understand that not natural can still be pleasurable to some people. That's not my point. It still isn't natural. The question remains, why? Well, that deserves at least a book or two, so I'm not going to try to explain that here. It isn't my purpose to start a fight or to hurt someones feelings. Its way to sensitive a subject. Just for the record, Mathew, I have short index fingers. ;D Clearly, homosexuality is present in nature and homosexuals are produced by nature. Anyone with basic knowledge of biology knows that homosexual behavior has been observed in many animals, including humans. By definition, doesn't that make it natural? Maybe the incorrect assumption you made (that human sexuality was designed) led you to that conclusion. We are all products of evolution.
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Post by Mat Helmer on Jul 13, 2007 22:27:48 GMT -5
An interesting passage from Page 2.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Jul 14, 2007 9:58:47 GMT -5
Butt darts....is a choice.... God did not create them that way. If God did create people that way....it is an illness and GOd can heal them. because he clearly destroyed 2 cities because of its or 3 rather.....if u include new orleans Evolution is a load crap.
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 14, 2007 10:20:56 GMT -5
Tim Layton,
That's where you and I are going to disagree. Evolution (not Darwin's Theory of Evolution) is scientific fact. Evolution in nature is normal and natural. But humans, made in the image and likeness of God have a dignity and responsibility which is higher than that of animals. God's laws regulate our sexuality. You have the freedom to accept or reject. And then comes the rewards or consequences. You may not believe in God right now, but I guarantee you that at the hour of your death you will. You can't prove that God doesn't exist, so why take a chance? And yes, it has been proved countless times that God does in fact exist. First there are countless corroborated mystical revelations. Second, you have Ph. D's in Philosophy and Theology that are proficient in Saint Thomas Aquinas's works that prove beyond any doubt that God must exist. There is no question about it. Why gamble with eternity for fleeting moments of sexual pleasure? If you really care, find everything you can get your hands on that was written by Saint Thomas Aquinas. God bless,
Bob
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 14, 2007 10:24:27 GMT -5
i didnt even read that link...... but here is my officail comment. There aint too many things in this a world a strong rope and an oak tree wont fix Hey Ryan, Tell us how you really feel! LOL
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Post by Mat Helmer on Jul 14, 2007 11:53:42 GMT -5
i didnt even read that link...... but here is my officail comment. There aint too many things in this a world a strong rope and an oak tree wont fix I don't necessarily agree that there are physical reasons for someone to be gay or straight but I thought this was an interesting topic and I posted it to spark discussion. Maybe there is a gene, maybe it is a lifestyle choice, maybe we are all just a product of our surroundings...
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Post by Tim Layton on Jul 14, 2007 13:05:56 GMT -5
Tim Layton, That's where you and I are going to disagree. Evolution (not Darwin's Theory of Evolution) is scientific fact. Evolution in nature is normal and natural. But humans, made in the image and likeness of God have a dignity and responsibility which is higher than that of animals. God's laws regulate our sexuality. You have the freedom to accept or reject. And then comes the rewards or consequences. You may not believe in God right now, but I guarantee you that at the hour of your death you will. You can't prove that God doesn't exist, so why take a chance? And yes, it has been proved countless times that God does in fact exist. First there are countless corroborated mystical revelations. Second, you have Ph. D's in Philosophy and Theology that are proficient in Saint Thomas Aquinas's works that prove beyond any doubt that God must exist. There is no question about it. Why gamble with eternity for fleeting moments of sexual pleasure? If you really care, find everything you can get your hands on that was written by Saint Thomas Aquinas. God bless, Bob Hi Bob, In the field of biology, it is a fact that humans are animals. In the scientific community, the theory of evolution by means of natural selection is accepted fact for good reason - there is plenty of evidence to support it. I have no reason to prove that God doesn't exist. You can't prove that the mystical garden fairy doesn't exist, so why take the chance? He isn't as popular as God, but he is much more powerful The proof that you speak of isn't really considered evidence. I have read a little of the writings by Saint Thomas Aquinas - I thought his arguments were unconvincing and without merit. Richard Dawkins does a pretty good job of refuting Aquinas in The God Delusion (great book by the way). Take care, Tim
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 14, 2007 16:16:54 GMT -5
Tim,
Looks like we aren't going to see eye to eye any time soon.
Let me put it this way. By striving for a life of virtue, my physical, earthly life has been enriched. If God doesn't exist, I lose nothing. If God does exist, I gain eternal life. If you are wrong, you lose eternal life. If you are right, how has fleeting sexual pleasure really enriched your earthly life? God bless,
Bob
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Post by Mat Helmer on Jul 14, 2007 16:56:15 GMT -5
Yeah, but does the: LENGTH OF YOUR FINGERS HAIR WHORL FINGERPRINT DENSITY LEFT-HANDEDNESS BEING AMBIDEXTROUS LOVE OF GIORGIO ARMANI (kidding)Make you pre-disposed to being gay?
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Post by Mat Helmer on Jul 14, 2007 17:11:43 GMT -5
Clearly, homosexuality is present in nature and homosexuals are produced by nature. Anyone with basic knowledge of biology knows that homosexual behavior has been observed in many animals, including humans. By definition, doesn't that make it natural? Maybe the incorrect assumption you made (that human sexuality was designed) led you to that conclusion. We are all products of evolution. Check this out.
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Post by Tim Layton on Jul 14, 2007 17:21:12 GMT -5
Tim, Looks like we aren't going to see eye to eye any time soon. Let me put it this way. By striving for a life of virtue, my physical, earthly life has been enriched. If God doesn't exist, I lose nothing. If God does exist, I gain eternal life. If you are wrong, you lose eternal life. If you are right, how has fleeting sexual pleasure really enriched your earthly life? God bless, Bob Bob, Your response is a false dichotomy. Here is an alternative possibility: Assuming God exists, he might think my virtues are good and reward me with eternal life, and deny you because you have been misled by a book written by a bunch of men that didn't know much about the world. Assuming God doesn't exist, you personally might not lose anything, but many gay people would. I'm not a homosexual so I can't be certain, but I do have a gay friend that would testify that "fleeting sexual pleasure" with his life partner of over 20 years has greatly enriched his life ;D Take care, Tim
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Post by Robert Bishop on Jul 14, 2007 19:08:25 GMT -5
The bottom line is that if you are gay you will burn in hell when you die unless you repent.A person cannot be gay and not be demon posessed.They need to repent and ask god to remove the demons of lust from them.Whosoever breaketh a hedge a serpent shall bite him.If this offends anyone to bad i dont care its the truth
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Post by Bob Paradis on Jul 14, 2007 21:00:24 GMT -5
Tim,
For the record, I'm going by the Bible...either the Revised New American Bible (Catholic) or the King James Version (Protestant) would be fine. The 240 or so exegetes that put together the Revised New American Bible together all have Ph. D's...some in Theology, some in Philosophy, some in the ancient languages of Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and Aramaic. Besides having close to or greater than genius IQ's, these men are human. They are subject to sexual temptations as we are. Some of those men likely had to deal with the issue of same sex attraction at one time or another. To say that the bible was written by men who didn't really know much about the world wasn't well thought out. The Bible was essentially compiled within approximately 300 years of Jesus' death. Most of the information in the gospels comes directly from Jesus himself. Would you say that Jesus did not know much about the world?
I don't blame you for having a strong desire to defend a good friend. That is a noble desire. Like I said, we all have equal dignity in the eyes of God. However, the Bible makes it clear that homosexual acts are an abomination. If your friend and his mate were to live together in a chaste manner, there would be no problem with them being partners.
Teachings of the Bible and teachings of the Church can be difficult to accept. Changes of heart and repentance don't happen overnight. I caution you about one thing Tim. Don't use your intelligence and education to defend a position that goes against all moral teaching without first exploring the other side of the position. You've got to be unbiased if you want to get to the truth. I've been on all sides of these moral arguments over the years. I'm 46 now and have lived a fairly full life, some good, some bad. My positions have shifted to the point where I love all goodness and despise all evil. Goodness brings my soul joy. Evil of any kind brings my soul anguish. I would join you in defending your friend from harm or ill treatment, but I couldn't lie to him about the teachings of the Church. I said earlier that I didn't want to start a war here. Some peoples feelings are very strong on both sides of the fence, and are all too willing to fight about it. I have no intention of joining the fight. This hopefully will be the last I say about it. God bless,
Bob
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