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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 1, 2011 2:02:04 GMT -5
I personally don't think the name Lucifer is attributed to Christ it's not supposed to be in the Bible period. Jerome put that term in there.
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Post by Ryan Thames on Aug 1, 2011 4:57:25 GMT -5
Given the information before me I had to give it a more thorough look.
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Post by John Wilson on Aug 1, 2011 11:49:49 GMT -5
I personally don't think the name Lucifer is attributed to Christ it's not supposed to be in the Bible period. Jerome put that term in there. totally agree. I do not think we should hear the name "Lucifer" and think "Christ". The name Lucifer has come to be associated with the fallen angel. Right or wrong, that is the connotation of the name. A Latin name or term should not exist in the Old Testament, period, unless it is reference to something Roman. I'm with Johnny. As a layman, I choose to chalk it up to Jerome's poor judgement and I think of it as a badly chosen word during translation. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 1, 2011 12:30:20 GMT -5
The whole thing is, is that Lucifer is a Latin term. The Book Of Isaiah was written in Hebrew so Lucifer is not the correct word that was inserted. Jerome essentially changed the word, it's not a name that is mentioned it's just a word there not a proper noun.
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 1, 2011 12:30:42 GMT -5
Essentially it's just a description
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Post by Allen Hester on Aug 3, 2011 9:29:26 GMT -5
What do you think about the term Lucifer being in there period though Allen??? It's not even a term thats supposed to be present at all from everything I have studied so far. Johnny, the word being in the Bible is odd, and it can bring about it the wrong context based on the preceding words to the mentioning of "Lucifer". Do I say, when I pray to Jesus, "In Lucifer's name I pray...Amen"? - NO! John Wilson said it best that English words can be interpreted in many ways, and when applied to an argument they can be interpreted according to ones current disposition, such as when one is angry, happy, or sad. Also what degree are you in the Masons?? I will refrain from answering your question, for it could incite further speculation, based on limited knowledge from non-Masons. Know I am at least Blue Lodge. The theories I have heard about Mason's being evil do have some evidence of that in certain aspects as in if your looking at it from a Christian viewpoint. Such as in the book The mysteries of Magic it speaks about how one can conjure Lucifer up. Last I check we cannot conjure Jesus up with Magic, [...].. I have not read this book, but I am interested in where it say, "masons conjure up lucifer". I would like to speak to author on his content. Where did he come up with that nonsense! The say the highest levels of the orders are only in the know and even then only one side of the order. One of my best friends is a Mason and my great grandpa was and my uncle was also. Masonry has two appending bodies: Scottish Rite and York Rite. Neither promote Satanic rituals, sacrifices, etc, etc.. If you hear differently then it is apparently coming from someone who does NOT know (based on your phrase, "In the know") what this fraternity truly is about. However, ones who are "in the know" have obviously been pissed off by not getting "their" agenda pushed through and in the name of not being found out, they speak evil of the ones (Masons) who cast him (them) out because of his ill intentions. My wife always says, "When someone is accusing the other of something, they're usually the one who are doing such." My dad, brother, cousins, father-in-law, his brothers, their dad, their uncles, and myself have been/are now Masons and proud of it. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 3, 2011 14:08:41 GMT -5
What do you think about the term Lucifer being in there period though Allen??? It's not even a term thats supposed to be present at all from everything I have studied so far. Johnny, the word being in the Bible is odd, and it can bring about it the wrong context based on the preceding words to the mentioning of "Lucifer". Do I say, when I pray to Jesus, "In Lucifer's name I pray...Amen"? - NO! John Wilson said it best that English words can be interpreted in many ways, and when applied to an argument they can be interpreted according to ones current disposition, such as when one is angry, happy, or sad. I will refrain from answering your question, for it could incite further speculation, based on limited knowledge from non-Masons. Know I am at least Blue Lodge. I have not read this book, but I am interested in where it say, "masons conjure up lucifer". I would like to speak to author on his content. Where did he come up with that nonsense! The say the highest levels of the orders are only in the know and even then only one side of the order. One of my best friends is a Mason and my great grandpa was and my uncle was also. Masonry has two appending bodies: Scottish Rite and York Rite. Neither promote Satanic rituals, sacrifices, etc, etc.. If you hear differently then it is apparently coming from someone who does NOT know (based on your phrase, "In the know") what this fraternity truly is about. However, ones who are "in the know" have obviously been pissed off by not getting "their" agenda pushed through and in the name of not being found out, they speak evil of the ones (Masons) who cast him (them) out because of his ill intentions. My wife always says, "When someone is accusing the other of something, they're usually the one who are doing such." My dad, brother, cousins, father-in-law, his brothers, their dad, their uncles, and myself have been/are now Masons and proud of it. The thing about Lucifer is the word is not English. It is a Latin word and it was the word Jerome chose, the word Lucifer in English translates literally, The Morning Star. It is simply a change that Jerome made not something that is lost in being translated into English. Simply people going on what Jerome put instead of the Hebrew text it was written in. How will saying your rank make me think any differently of you? I don't think you are evil nor do I think masons as a group are evil, you have good and bad in any group of people. I was just wondering what rank you were. I have always considered you a friend. The book was written by Eliphas Levi and Arthur Edward Waite. Supposedly "The Builders" is promoted which leads you to read "The Mysteries of Magic". In that book it essentially takes the word Lucifer and attributes it too the holy spirit. Which would be a false teaching as the word Lucifer is just a word that is not supposed to be in the Bible period. It is in one of Waite's books that it supposedly has the way to conjure Lucifer. I agree that term is not in Isaiah and it is not proper noun meaning there is no name listed so it's a falsified belief in Lucifer period. It would also appear that Albert Pike borrowed some of his writings in Morals and Dogma from Eliphas Levi. It's just different things like that, that have been what make people think Mason's are evil. I don't believe mason's in general are evil, I do know you do not have to believe the teachings of Jesus ect..... to be a Mason, just a belief in a higher power. I had and opportunity to become a mason but declined, I may one day just to see what it's all about from and inside perspective, but I would rather not teach people what I would learn in there as it is not cool to join something just to give away all their traditions. If I ever did join it would be out of my curiosity to learn just exactly what they teach for my own personal reasons. As I said, my best friend is a mason and we have had many many conversations about it. Also the Mysteries of Magic is on the Scottish Rite path I believe Allen, you would understand all that better than me. I would like to hear your opinions on those writings though. No ill intent intended either. Also the authors are dead so you wouldn't be able to talk to them lol, it woulda been nice to ask them what they were thinking though. I take it all to mean you have people, just like you have people in Church who are there with bad intentions. People do different things for different reasons in all organizations. I do not buy into the magical teachings as it goes against my beliefs in what the Bible says about magic/occult. |
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Post by Allen Hester on Aug 3, 2011 23:23:45 GMT -5
[...] How will saying your rank make me think any differently of you? I don't think you are evil nor do I think masons as a group are evil, you have good and bad in any group of people. I was just wondering what rank you were. I have always considered you a friend. One thing is for certain, Johnny, when you have new statements presented people take them and run with them to fit their agenda(s). Not saying YOU are the one I am referring to, specifically. The book was written by Eliphas Levi and Arthur Edward Waite. Supposedly "The Builders" is promoted which leads you to read "The Mysteries of Magic". In that book it essentially takes the word Lucifer and attributes it too the holy spirit. Which would be a false teaching as the word Lucifer is just a word that is not supposed to be in the Bible period. It is in one of Waite's books that it supposedly has the way to conjure Lucifer. I agree that term is not in Isaiah and it is not proper noun meaning there is no name listed so it's a falsified belief in Lucifer period. It would also appear that Albert Pike borrowed some of his writings in Morals and Dogma from Eliphas Levi. It's just different things like that, that have been what make people think Mason's are evil. It is perceptions and straw grabbing, like that, is what promotes skepticism and rumor. Albert Pike's writings have been misconstrued to fit what he "could have" meant. (Too in-depth to elaborate) Why do people not see what we do, instead of what people "think" we are about? People are too bent on trying to prove their point without any proof of their accusations. We do more good for anyone than most any entity out there. Just because I won't tell you what I said to a Brother in lodge means I am evil? Hmmm....I guess that it would seem that way. Point being...people fear what they do not know. I don't believe mason's in general are evil, I do know you do not have to believe the teachings of Jesus ect..... to be a Mason, just a belief in a higher power. No one said Masonry was only for Christians. This fraternity stretches globally. Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, Jews, etc are part of it. Yes, you are to believe in a higher Being than yourself. Some think it is Satan. Why? Why can the Christian Mason not believe in Christ, the Muslim Mason in Allah, etc? The language is universal that you cannot be an atheist. We do pray - at our suppers, opening and closing of our lodges, and for the sick and bereaved. (In our lodge, specifically, we end each prayer with, "...in Jesus name we pray - Amen") I had and opportunity to become a mason but declined, I may one day just to see what it's all about from and inside perspective, but I would rather not teach people what I would learn in there as it is not cool to join something just to give away all their traditions. If I ever did join it would be out of my curiosity to learn just exactly what they teach for my own personal reasons. Johnny, please don't take this the wrong way, but if you have intention to join to just "see what it's all about", then I hope you never get in any lodge. If you wanted to join it for the right personal reasons, then I would welcome you with open arms. As I said, my best friend is a mason and we have had many many conversations about it. Also the Mysteries of Magic is on the Scottish Rite path I believe Allen, you would understand all that better than me. I would like to hear your opinions on those writings though. No ill intent intended either. Also the authors are dead so you wouldn't be able to talk to them lol, it woulda been nice to ask them what they were thinking though. I take it all to mean you have people, just like you have people in Church who are there with bad intentions. People do different things for different reasons in all organizations. I do not buy into the magical teachings as it goes against my beliefs in what the Bible says about magic/occult. People do join groups for mercenary purposes, but they end up disappointed and it isn't what they thought. If someone joins Freemasonry to find out if we worship satan, then he is truly going to be disappointed. Maybe this is where all these rumors come from - he has to validate his reason to others as to why he joined and not to be embarrassed when he couldn't see anything wrong. His strong point? The others cannot disprove his accusations...only Masons can. But who are people going to believe? Someone who is a blabber-mouth, or one who is staying quiet in hopes that the reason is apparent in our doings in public and for the public? |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 4, 2011 0:04:17 GMT -5
True, but those guys who wrote those books were high degree masons. They were into the occult big time among other things. Im just giving you the reasons on why people think that masons are evil. They do fear what they do not understand but at the same time when you read stuff that has been written by some such as in those books it paints a picture. I know all the rituals of masonry are not mainstream, over the years I have learned some of the ideals.
Also the other reason about the whole thing is that a lot of people in powerful positions have been masons and from my learnings the group is put before anything. So that has lead to some ideals. Which in my opinion anyone in a real powerful position should not have secrets that could possibly affect their policies, im not saying it would but they shouldn't be allowed because the possibility is there.
also bout joining that was hence the reason I didn't join. I coulda joined just to learn what they believe not just to see about the Lucifer thing or anything like that, hence why I didn't because I am comfortable in what I believe now. But I also don't think someone would be wrong just for joining to learn about it. Thats what everyone essentially does to begin with right??? They join something to learn, it's human nature...
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 4, 2011 0:07:28 GMT -5
I know the Bible teaches anything that teaches a different gospel than Jesus taught, they are cursed. Im paraphrasing that.
Also how has the business been Allen??? Didn't you have your own business? I haven't talked to you in awhile. Last thing I remember is the big discussion about Bruce Lee vs MMA fighters haha
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Post by Allen Hester on Aug 7, 2011 15:16:47 GMT -5
True, but those guys who wrote those books were high degree masons. They were into the occult big time among other things. Im just giving you the reasons on why people think that masons are evil. They do fear what they do not understand but at the same time when you read stuff that has been written by some such as in those books it paints a picture. I know all the rituals of masonry are not mainstream, over the years I have learned some of the ideals. A little something about Masonry that many don't know, realize, or are willing to accept. Attaining to the third degree is the extent of the "superiority" of the fraternity. The appending bodies are there for a continuation of fellowship among men, not to plan a global takeover, worship satan, create hidden/false gods, etc., etc.  Also the other reason about the whole thing is that a lot of people in powerful positions have been masons and from my learnings the group is put before anything. So that has lead to some ideals. Which in my opinion anyone in a real powerful position should not have secrets that could possibly affect their policies, im not saying it would but they shouldn't be allowed because the possibility is there. Does this go for the college fraternity secrets you learn when you undergo initiation? If so, then we need non-collegiate candidates, who were not in Frats, to run for office.  also bout joining that was hence the reason I didn't join. I coulda joined just to learn what they believe not just to see about the Lucifer thing or anything like that, hence why I didn't because I am comfortable in what I believe now. But I also don't think someone would be wrong just for joining to learn about it. Thats what everyone essentially does to begin with right??? They join something to learn, it's human nature... Yes, we do join to learn, but it is to learn MORE of what we know already about a club/group, and not join it to find out what it is ABOUT. Big difference. If more people were to SEE what we do, then they would KNOW what we are about. Period. I know the Bible teaches anything that teaches a different gospel than Jesus taught, they are cursed. Im paraphrasing that. We (Masons) do not do that. And anyone telling you differently is an idiot. Also how has the business been Allen??? Didn't you have your own business? I haven't talked to you in awhile. Last thing I remember is the big discussion about Bruce Lee vs MMA fighters haha Haha! Yeah, I remember that topic. I still believe it too. As far as my business...I still have it and I am also working for a large chemical manufacturing plant. The two keep me very busy! ;D |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 7, 2011 16:39:59 GMT -5
True, but those guys who wrote those books were high degree masons. They were into the occult big time among other things. Im just giving you the reasons on why people think that masons are evil. They do fear what they do not understand but at the same time when you read stuff that has been written by some such as in those books it paints a picture. I know all the rituals of masonry are not mainstream, over the years I have learned some of the ideals. A little something about Masonry that many don't know, realize, or are willing to accept. Attaining to the third degree is the extent of the "superiority" of the fraternity. The appending bodies are there for a continuation of fellowship among men, not to plan a global takeover, worship satan, create hidden/false gods, etc., etc. Does this go for the college fraternity secrets you learn when you undergo initiation? If so, then we need non-collegiate candidates, who were not in Frats, to run for office. Yes, we do join to learn, but it is to learn MORE of what we know already about a club/group, and not join it to find out what it is ABOUT. Big difference. If more people were to SEE what we do, then they would KNOW what we are about. Period. We (Masons) do not do that. And anyone telling you differently is an idiot. Also how has the business been Allen??? Didn't you have your own business? I haven't talked to you in awhile. Last thing I remember is the big discussion about Bruce Lee vs MMA fighters haha Haha! Yeah, I remember that topic. I still believe it too. As far as my business...I still have it and I am also working for a large chemical manufacturing plant. The two keep me very busy! ;D As far as teaching a different gospel, that it essentially does. Because I know a lot of Masons do no believe in a Jesus, I mean I personally know them. That means it's teaching something else. So from the Christian standpoint that makes it false. There are a lot of those groups you speak of at college that yes you should have to cut ties with them when you become a PUBLIC official. It's not a secret official, it's PUBLIC. Look how many skull and bones members made it to a very high position of power........that in and of itself says enough about being in a secret group and representing our country. They should not go hand in hand. Everything should be public for a public official otherwise they should not represent me. I also still believe that Bruce Lee woulda killed them in a real fight lol. |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 7, 2011 16:42:23 GMT -5
Im not saying the person has to divulge the their fraternity secrets, they should have to cut ties with any secret group though. Like the whole Bohemian Grove thing. When people are representing us, there should not be and increased risk for policy making behind our backs.
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Post by Allen Hester on Aug 8, 2011 13:38:46 GMT -5
As far as teaching a different gospel, that it essentially does. Because I know a lot of Masons do no believe in a Jesus, I mean I personally know them. That means it's teaching something else. So from the Christian standpoint that makes it false. Johnny, Masonry does NOT teach a religion, nor dictate what religion you should follow. This needs to be understood because this is where all the confusion comes from, therefore speculation. One must believe in a higher being than himself, whether that Being is Jesus Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, etc. Masonry is global, not just for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhism, etc, etc. You actually think your friends/family DON'T believe in Jesus Christ because of Masonry? For your friends/family to not believe in Jesus doesn't mean that Masonry is some evil entity teaching anything against the Bible, because it does NOT. Maybe they follow another pathway. Now, if they follow Satanism, they should be and MUST be banished from this fraternity!  Maybe you can accept that it teaches to treat your fellow man with compassion and charity, and to assist them (community) in any way you can, when they need help. I believe all religion teaches that universal tenent. You mention skull and cross bones. I am assuming that in that reference you believe that to be evil? If so, maybe we should ban all pirate costumes and paraphernalia? Bruce Lee would have his hands full nowadays, but I believe he would have far developed his knowledge in the physiology of the human being to quickly immobilize his attacker. ;D |
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Post by Johnny Edwards on Aug 8, 2011 13:56:15 GMT -5
As far as teaching a different gospel, that it essentially does. Because I know a lot of Masons do no believe in a Jesus, I mean I personally know them. That means it's teaching something else. So from the Christian standpoint that makes it false. Johnny, Masonry does NOT teach a religion, nor dictate what religion you should follow. This needs to be understood because this is where all the confusion comes from, therefore speculation. One must believe in a higher being than himself, whether that Being is Jesus Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, etc. Masonry is global, not just for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Buddhism, etc, etc. You actually think your friends/family DON'T believe in Jesus Christ because of Masonry? For your friends/family to not believe in Jesus doesn't mean that Masonry is some evil entity teaching anything against the Bible, because it does NOT. Maybe they follow another pathway. Now, if they follow Satanism, they should be and MUST be banished from this fraternity! Maybe you can accept that it teaches to treat your fellow man with compassion and charity, and to assist them (community) in any way you can, when they need help. I believe all religion teaches that universal tenent. You mention skull and cross bones. I am assuming that in that reference you believe that to be evil? If so, maybe we should ban all pirate costumes and paraphernalia? Bruce Lee would have his hands full nowadays, but I believe he would have far developed his knowledge in the physiology of the human being to quickly immobilize his attacker. ;D Let me make it clearer, I don't think they are evil, but from a Christian standpoint Masons are not teaching the Christ of the Bible which the Bible speaks against. I didn't say it was evil or the devil, but people do think that because it teaches something different. Just believing in a higher power doesn't count in a Biblical perspective. Thats becomes a false teaching. It's like saying going to church gets you to heaven. Also from personally knowing some Masons, the belief in a higher power could technically be Satan if they wanted it to be, but with that said they still have to have moral obligations that relate to the group, otherwise they cannot represent it properly. Skull and Bones, you actually don't know anymore about them than I do. Thing is think of how many of those people have risen to a very powerful position just because they were buddies with the other members.... What Im saying is thats not right and shouldn't be allowed. We are fed propoganda all the time. Thing is if it comes to your group of people who your very tight with, just from looking at evidence your gonna choose them over anything else which compromises someone like that representing a public interest. I don't see where pirate costumes or what not factor into this. In all seriousness I guess we should also just let terrorist run for president since their group connections mean nothing |
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